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Old 01-16-2018, 03:31 PM   #11
JLV
 
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

Well, on the surface, I guess the counterargument would be "that's not how summoning spells work, according to AW..."
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

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Well, on the surface, I guess the counterargument would be "that's not how summoning spells work, according to AW..."
Does Joe the Fighter know that? ;-)
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:34 PM   #13
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Does Joe the Fighter know that? ;-)
I would think something that fundamental would be covered in "basic fighting conditions for magical worlds 101" if it is in fact the case! ;-)

I'm going to be interested to hear what, if anything, Steve thinks about the issue...
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:52 PM   #14
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I would think something that fundamental would be covered in "basic fighting conditions for magical worlds 101" if it is in fact the case! ;-)
I would say it depends on the character's background. For example, in the real world, in the modern United States military, during basic training all troops are given some training in how to deal with chemical weapons; when I went through Air Force basic training (mumble-mumble-ty nine years ago) we were taught that they existed, we were shown the MOPP gear, and were told that if we were going to be serving in an area where chemical weapons were known to be deployed, we would receive additional training on how to wear the gear, exposure to tear gas, and so on. The other services received more, and more extensive, training.

By analogy, a fantasy world character in a well trained and well equipped military unit in a rich country might be given similar training in magic and how to deal with magic from a soldier's standpoint, but would an average peasant levy, bandit, or gladiator, someone who picked up a sword by necessity and learned on the job, have the same knowledge?
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:07 PM   #15
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

This is going to sound like a diversion, but I think it's relevant.

Sheepfarmer's Daughter, by Elizabeth Moon.

IMO, and in the opinion of others, the best depiction ever of battle magic as seen by the non-mage grunts in the trenches.

Dont let the title fool you. I have no idea what somebody was thinking to let it out with that title. This is an adventure story, and a strong one. The sequels show a detectable D&D influence but if you had never heard of D&D your enjoyment would not be lessened.

Back to the subject at hand - I hope it does not become necessary to hedge illusions around with too many more rules. We have not even reached the question of what the abilities of Joe the Illusion are when the multiple viewers disagree on what Joe can do.
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

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I would say it depends on the character's background. For example, in the real world, in the modern United States military, during basic training all troops are given some training in how to deal with chemical weapons; when I went through Air Force basic training (mumble-mumble-ty nine years ago) we were taught that they existed, we were shown the MOPP gear, and were told that if we were going to be serving in an area where chemical weapons were known to be deployed, we would receive additional training on how to wear the gear, exposure to tear gas, and so on. The other services received more, and more extensive, training.

By analogy, a fantasy world character in a well trained and well equipped military unit in a rich country might be given similar training in magic and how to deal with magic from a soldier's standpoint, but would an average peasant levy, bandit, or gladiator, someone who picked up a sword by necessity and learned on the job, have the same knowledge?
Um...I don't think the analogy is really that similar. If you think about it, all you actually need to stop an illusion of yourself is the understanding that it isn't you and can't be a "clone" (if that is, in fact, the case -- not sure how Steve would rule on that one). You don't need to actually fight one to figure that out, so in this case, you don't NEED to put on the MOPP gear to know that the issue exists. And this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I would expect would be common knowledge among people living in a fantasy world -- just as we all commonly know that poison gas exists here. The good news for the fantasy folk is that their solution to the illusion problem is the same cantrip they were all taught as children about disbelieving an illusion/image before it can hurt them or someone else. Whereas for us, if you HAVEN'T gotten the MOPP training, and/or if you DON'T actually have the gear, you're toast, regardless of your general knowledge about poison gas...

(And, for whatever it's worth, I was an Army grunt before I joined the USAF (and thus went through all that "extra" training -- which lasted about an hour and a half, and consisted of us putting on a gas mask -- NOT full MOPP gear -- going into a sealed tent where they popped a tear gas cannister, and then taking off our gas mask while they asked questions of us which we had to shout the answers to -- to insure we inhaled some of the gas. We then staggered outside to try and get the gas out of our lungs and eyes -- and, in some cases throw up.) By contrast, when I was actually deployed to a war zone where the USAF (which I joined after college) thought we might actually confront poison gas (in August 1990 when Sadam invaded Kuwait), we were given roughly 8 hours of additional training in both the classroom and in a gas chamber, including making us replace filters over and over and over again, practice donning the MOPP gear over and over again, teaching us how to detect gas ourselves, letting us smell the odors we could expect from different gasses, and then the same "tear gas" experience the Army gave me back in the late 70's. In short, the USAF's training was far better and more thorough than anything I received in the 1st ID in '78-'79. So maybe you not getting the training was a good sign! ;-) )

To my mind the best rule for what talents an illusion of a real person has is what the person the illusion is based on actually has, talents-wise -- mostly, however, that illusion's going to be a standard, central-casting issued Myrmidon with whatever equipment I give him and whatever talents are necessary to use it. I can't control what people "believe" but I can get my teeth into what actually IS. More importantly, if recent history has taught us nothing else, some people will believe anything, and others will believe nothing at all. It's hard to run a game that way...

Last edited by JLV; 01-17-2018 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:51 AM   #17
Chris Goodwin
 
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To my mind the best rule for what talents an illusion of a real person has is what the person the illusion is based on actually has, talents-wise -- mostly, however, that illusion's going to be a standard, central-casting issued Myrmidon with whatever equipment I give him and whatever talents are necessary to use it. I can't control what people "believe" but I can get my teeth into what actually IS. More importantly, if recent history has taught us nothing else, some people will believe anything, and others will believe nothing at all. It's hard to run a game that way...
My point was that, if your career path into fighting was as a member of a military force trained in a rich country, you might be taught how to deal with exotic things like chemical warfare or magic. If you started out by picking up a weapon and surviving, you wouldn't have that.

Also, how does either the well trained grunt or the thug with a weapon know that some wizard hasn't researched and created a Summon Doppelganger spell? If I were a GM, I might throw one of those in, just so that the PC doesn't know whether or not that's what happened.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

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My point was that, if your career path into fighting was as a member of a military force trained in a rich country, you might be taught how to deal with exotic things like chemical warfare or magic. If you started out by picking up a weapon and surviving, you wouldn't have that.

Also, how does either the well trained grunt or the thug with a weapon know that some wizard hasn't researched and created a Summon Doppelganger spell? If I were a GM, I might throw one of those in, just so that the PC doesn't know whether or not that's what happened.
MY point is that, according to the rules for disbelieving illusions in both Wizard and Advanced Wizard, EVERYBODY knows how to do it. QED, it's something taught to everyone, probably for safety reasons against insane mages or fey creatures or anyone else who might create an illusion/image for nefarious reasons, which renders your argument about "special training" moot at best.

As for the "doppelganger" argument, I have two responses:

1) There is no such creature in TFT as written. Therefore it's not an issue in the TFT system as written.

2) Assume the GM introduces "doppelgangers" to the system. So what? You attempt to disbelieve something. You fail (either because you simply failed to disbelieve, or because whatever it is isn't an illusion/image). You fight. Those three steps STILL APPLY here -- if you can't disbelieve something that actually looks like you...then it must not be an illusion/image, because you can automatically disbelieve an illusion/image that looks like you. So you fight. End of story.

(The good news is that you don't have to worry about what someone THINKS the illusion of you can do -- because it's not an illusion and it therefore has its own specific characteristics which dictate its performance, even if it's imitating your moves.)

Last edited by JLV; 01-17-2018 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:44 AM   #19
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If you shoot an illusory wall, you will see an illusory version of your projectile bounce off of it and it will hit the ground. I would rule that the illusory wall would act as soft but complete cover, as regards whether the real projectile hits a target hiding behind it. Assuming it's not disbelieved, the illusory wall could be brought down by attacks, spells, etc., that would bring down the real thing, and in the same way.

If you tossed a rock at it, to you and everyone else affected by the illusion, the rock would appear to bounce off of it and hit the ground. The real rock would continue through, entirely unimpeded. It is very likely that the illusory wall would hide the sound of the rock hitting the ground on the other side, and any additional affects that may come from that.

If the arbalest bolt could damage the real wall, the real arbalest bolt would damage the illusory wall in the same manner, and potentially leave behind an illusory bolt. The real arbalest bolt would continue through unimpeded, as above.

Yes, that means that there's an illusory arrow, rock, etc., that the attacker could potentially pick back up and reuse. It remains illusory, though, and ends when the original illusion ends -- but as long as the illusion continues, it acts as a real projectile against anyone else affected by the illusion. If the attacker somehow finds their original, real projectile, that might be when they get a chance to disbelieve the illusion.
Except Illusions don't work that way.
Quote:
"An image/illusion double CANNOT throw spells of my kind. It can make only physical attacks (and CANNOT use a thrown or missile weapon that would require the image/illusion to divide in two). However, a double can PRETEND to cast a spell..."
The creation of an illusory rock, arrow, etc that bounces off the wall, or otherwise can be interacted with as a seperate object violates the basic Wizard rule I quoted as it would require the illusion to divide in two, which illusions and images cannot do.

No illusory rock bouncing off an illusory wall is going to happen. Either the physical rock is going to go through the illusory wall or the physical rock is going to bounce off the illusory wall. Those are the only two possibilities allowed by the Wizard rules.

Quote:
"Illusions or images of walls, fire, or shadow can be created. Illusions Work just like the real thing until disbelieved or destroyed by a spell. Images LOOK real, but vanish when hit, touched, or walked through."
Suggests that the physical rock will bounce off the illusory wall.

I think the point should be clarified in a redux TFT set.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions

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Originally Posted by Dave Crowell View Post
Suggests that the physical rock will bounce off the illusory wall.
Except the line you quoted (emphais mine)

Quote:
"Illusions or images of walls, fire, or shadow can be created. Illusions Work just like the real thing until disbelieved or destroyed by a spell. Images LOOK real, but vanish when hit, touched, or walked through."
could also be read that the rock hit the wall, so a rock or arrow interacting with a wall illusion would cause the wall to vanish. It doesn't state a creature has to hit the wall.
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