[Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017 - Page 9

Icelander · 03-28-2017, 10:24 AM

I'm arming a sharpshooter/sniper/surveillance tech with a back-up weapon that is more useful than a pistol. His fellow team members would probably choose the MP7A2 personal defence weapon for this role, but as this character belongs to 'the Activity' and the mission is blacker than black, there would be no objections to him carrying a commercial weapon acquired through sanitised methods.

This particular character, SFC Eduardo Vasquez, is fond of large bore weapons. Vasquez favourite chamberings are .50 BMGs, .338 Lapua Magnum and the emerging ultra long-range sniping rounds like .416 Barret or .408 CheyTac. He considers the .300 Win Mag a cute little round and basically insisted that he'd need a sniper rifle in that caliber and not a smaller .308 weapon. Which is why he's toting his M2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle in .300 Win Mag instead of a lighter primary weapon.

Vasquez will be carrying his personal* Guncrafter Industries Model 2 in .50 GI as a sidearm and a H&K P2000 SK in .40 S&W as his ankle gun. Vasquez is not fond of indiscriminate automatic fire and, perhaps surprisingly, is not in love with big explosions, either. No, he truly loves to shoot big bore rounds accurately and watch the results. No, he's not a hunter or target shooter. He likes to shoot people.**

Vasquez isn't really undercover on this mission and he isn't expected to have to engage any targets. He's just meant to man surveillance gear and provide visual surveillance from time to time. There is a possibility that he might be expected to provide security, however, or to provide overwatch during a hypothetical extraction operation. If so, a full-length sniper rifle may be unecessary or at least difficult to get into the operational area.

The most likely shooting situation would be in the streets of a small village or town, at ranges no longer than 100 yards. There is a theoretical possibility that ranges of 100-200 and 200-300 might be involved, with firefights in the desert at longer ranges being not impossible, but definitely a job for a real sniper rifle. Soft body armour is not unlikely. Suppressed capability is a must.

Being able to conceal the weapon in a sports bag, on the floor of a car or otherwise, is vital. In fact, some situations might call for concealing a weapon under a coat. At the very least, Vasquez will require a weapon that he can fit under a coat, but is still accurate enough for rapid engagement and decisive neutralisation of multiple targets at ranges up to 100 yds.

Obviously, accurate engagement of armoured targets at 200+ yards is not necessarily compatible with concealment under a coat. On the other hand, if the weapon has a collapsible or folding stock and comes with more than one barrel, the same weapon could serve as a Bulk -4* PDW and Bulk -5* recce rifle, with only a few minutes or even shorter time to change barrels.

I'd be thinking 6" to 9" barrel for the shorter version and 12" to 14.5" heavy match barrel for the long-range configuration. Both barrels would have to be able to mount a good suppressor.

An AR-15 type rifle would allow for easy accessorizing, including a good folding stock which is also usable for accurate long-range shooting. I suppose an AR-10 type rifle would have much the same benefit.

What kind of rifle would people recommend as the base weapon? Which round, the .50 Beowulf, the .458 SOCOM, the 45 Raptor or something else?

I'm wondering which might offer the best selection of parts, like barrels and supressors. Also, which offers the best subsonic performance?

Does anyone know how quickly you could exchange barrels in an Alexander Arms Entry Carbine? If there is an AR-15 or AR-10 type weapon chambered for something serious that would be especially easy to perform a quick barrel change with?

What about concealment, what do people recommend in modifications for an easily concealed SBR AR-15?

And which of these heavy rounds functions best from a very short barrel?

*If anyone finds out, he's toast. There is a major difference between 'clandestinely acquired weapon available commercially' and 'personally bought weapon from a tiny speciality manufacturer who will probably remember you'. There's a reason Delta rejected Vasquez, even though he seemed perfecly qualified on paper and technically passed the psych eval.
**He has never told anyone this during a psych eval and he tries to avoid mentioning it to superiors who might not appreciate it, because while he might be crazy, he's crazy like a fox and not stupid.

~~evileeyore~~ · 03-28-2017, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander

I suppose an AR-10 type rifle would have much the same benefit.

If you're already looking at the AR-10, why not go for the more modern SCAR-H? It should have more modability and was used by the US military (special forces, primarily SEALs) for a bit (I think they're swapping out again for a lighter caliber). As the SCAR-H is 7.62x51mm it will take the 45 Raptor (which the SBR AR-15 will not*).

* The largest it looks like the SBR AR-15 is chambered for is 7.62x40mm.

[EDIT]
As I recall the FN SCAR system was specifically designed around modability from longer-range "sniper" set-up to shorter range CQB set-ups, primarily involving barrel swapping and stock adjusting.
[/EDIT]

Icelander · 03-28-2017, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

If you're already looking at the AR-10, why not go for the more modern SCAR-H?

Do you have a source for a rechambered SCAR-H in 45 Raptor or other similar chambering that has a barrel of 6" to 9" while still working reliably with subsonic as well as supersonic loads, as well as suppressed and unsuppressed?

How does the action and gas system of the SCAR handle a slower and heavier round? If it works fine with 10" or 12" barrel in 45 Raptor, will it still be fine at 8" barrel with a suppressor and subsonic rounds?

I know that rifles chambered for .50 Beowulf and .458 SOCOM have had problems with the gas system, feeding and various other issues when using shorter barrels. And the 45 Raptor is not designed for ultra-short barrels, it seems.

It might be possible to make such a weapon, but it would require a lot more research and a more qualified gunsmith than if you start with something which has the extreme parts-availability of an AR-15 type rifle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It should have more modability and was used by the US military (special forces, primarily SEALs) for a bit (I think they're swapping out again for a lighter caliber). As the SCAR-H is 7.62x51mm it will take the 45 Raptor (which the SBR AR-15 will not*).

It's designed to swap out the 7.62x51mm barrel fairly easily for one of a different length. Mind you, I'm not entirely certain if all the other parts are identical between the SCAR-H with a 20" barrel and the CQB one with the shortest barrel.

Carbines often have differences in the gas system from longer rifles. And carbines with 6" to 10" barrels often need gas systems designed for pistol-length weapons, anyway, especially if you want to run them with suppressors. Anything you want to shoot both subsonic and supersonic rounds through will also tend to be more complicated than just changing the barrel from a firearm designed around a different round.

As you'd be replacing the military issue barrel of a SCAR-H with a 45 Raptor one in any case, I don't see any benefit to the 7.62x51mm barrels being easily exchanged. While you could presumably try to get a new .45 inch barrel that was easy to swap out, that applies just as well to a new barrel you buy for an AR-15 or an AR-10 rifle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

* The largest it looks like the SBR AR-15 is chambered for is 7.62x40mm.

There are .50 Beowulf, .450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM uppers for AR-15 type weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

[EDIT]
As I recall the FN SCAR system was specifically designed around modability from longer-range "sniper" set-up to shorter range CQB set-ups, primarily involving barrel swapping and stock adjusting.
[/EDIT]

Yes, but I have no idea whether it's easy or practical to make versions of the FN SCAR-H in other chamberings than 7.62x51mm or if it is even possible to modify the gas system to get it to work reliably at extremely short barrel lengths, let alone suppressed with ultra-sort barrels. For the AR-15, it's simply a matter of looking up the recommendations of someone who has already done it and the AR-10, while not quite that commonly modified, seems to be heavily gunsmithed at least an order of magnitude more often than the FN SCAR-H.

~~evileeyore~~ · 03-28-2017, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander

Do you have a source for a rechambered SCAR-H in 45 Raptor or other similar chambering that has a barrel of 6" to 9" while still working reliably with subsonic as well as supersonic loads, as well as suppressed and unsuppressed?

Negative. However as the 45 Raptor by design was made to work as a higher "up calibered" .308 (rim specs are identical) and the SCAR-H* is .308 natively...

I do know the US special forces that use the SCAR-H often employ suppression systems (and subsonic loads), with both long and short barrel configurations... whether they could work with the 45 Raptor though? I dunno.

At current, it's impossible to get factory parts to make such a conversion (barrel and magazine at a minimum).

When I was first looking deeply into the SCAR system (about 8 or so years ago or so as character research for a Twilight 2K game) I had a buddy who'd just come back from being stationed in Iraq. He'd gotten to play extensively with the SCAR-H in it's primary configurations: CQC (Close-Quarters Combat) 13" barrel, "standard" 16" barrel, and SSR** (Sniper Support Rifle) 20" barrel.

The only difference according to him was the barrel length. And if you were going to go out with an SSR set-up, there was a specific stock which was more comfortable (taken straight from the FN MK20 SSR), but didn't fold.

* What I keep calling the SCAR-H is the FN SCAR 17. The SCAR-L is the FN SCAR 16. The difference being the H (for Heavy) is chambered 7.62x51mm and the L (for Light) is chambered 5.56x45mm. Both systems operate under the same "ease of configuration" principle.

** Based on the FN MK20 SSR which is the SCAR 17*** with some parts swapped out (which they also had on hand). Basically they slapped longer barrels on the 17 and it functioned identically to the MK 20, so they often didn't use the full MK 20 configuration in the field (barrel swapping is slower and won't drop all the way down to CQC length barrels - the extended upper receiver rail was too long). It meant "less rail space for all the goo-gaws" as he put it, but then as they were operating in an "urban environment" they preferred being able to drop barrel length in the field if it was necessary.

*** At the time of his deployment the SCAR 17 didn't natively come in the SSR configuration. The MK 20 SSR came as SSR and "mid-range" configurations (it had the 17's 16" barrels). Which according to him barely stuck out from the extended upper receiver rail. He thought it looked a bit funny that way and was completely unsuited to that set-up (too heavy and unwieldy by far).

Quote:

How does the action and gas system of the SCAR handle a slower and heavier round? If it works fine with 10" or 12" barrel in 45 Raptor, will it still be fine at 8" barrel with a suppressor and subsonic rounds?

Whoa. You've exceeded my knowledge sir.

However... I do know that baring extreme redesign of the rifle the SCAR 17 won't drop below a 10" barrel, the receivers aren't that short. 10 inches is the absolute minimum based on factory receivers.

Quote:

I know that rifles chambered for .50 Beowulf and .458 SOCOM have had problems with the gas system, feeding and various other issues when using shorter barrels. And the 45 Raptor is not designed for ultra-short barrels, it seems.

If it's just a barrel length issue, then with the "standard" 16 inch barrel of the SCAR 17 there should be no problem for a 45 Raptor.

If there is a "low pressure gas feed" issue, then... I have no idea.

I did do a good deal of google searching and have found no evidence anyone has ever fired a 45 Raptor out of a SCAR 17. Which could mean anything from "works great, so no one has reported a problem" to "works cruddy and no one has bothered to report a problem" to "can't be done, no one has even conceived of doing it"*.

However based on the AR10's rechambering needs, it shouldn't require anything more complex than a new barrel and magazines.

* But as this would require someone smithing their own .45 SCAR 17 barrel? Yeah, I'm leaning heavily of the 3rd option. I've since looked more deeply into the differences between the 45 Raptor and the .308, and no, the SCAR 17 won't take it without at least the barrel and magazines being modded.

Quote:

It's designed to swap out the 7.62x51mm barrel fairly easily for one of a different length. Mind you, I'm not entirely certain if all the other parts are identical between the SCAR-H with a 20" barrel and the CQB one with the shortest barrel.

Factory Issue? They are not. However as I mentioned my buddy noted the only practical difference is barrel length, upper receiver rails, and stock.

Like he literally took those parts off of an MK20 SSR and mounted them on his SCAR 17 and it performed identically (or close enough he couldn't discern a difference).

And he personally preferred to roll with the SCAR 17 using only the 20" barrel if he was on sniper overwatch on day missions. He said the folding stock was more familiar and the lighter weight of the weapon felt more natural to him. For night missions though? Yeah, he said they needed the rail space, and besides he wasn't likely to have "to get up off his comfy spot and move" on a night mission (the MK 20 is twice the weight of the 17).

Quote:

Carbines often have differences in the gas system from longer rifles. And carbines with 6" to 10" barrels often need gas systems designed for pistol-length weapons, anyway, especially if you want to run them with suppressors. Anything you want to shoot both subsonic and supersonic rounds through will also tend to be more complicated than just changing the barrel from a firearm designed around a different round.

From my recollection* the SCAR 17 is designed to take 13", 16" and 20" barrels (those are manufactured by FN or a 3rd party (in the case of the 13") specifically for the SCAR system).

It has a "self-adjusting" gas system (the barrels themselves are designed to regulate the proper gas flow, but the system is adjustable after market) so if it is "just a gas system" problem for the 45 Raptor, it should be fixable.

* And checking the wiki.

Quote:

As you'd be replacing the military issue barrel of a SCAR-H with a 45 Raptor one in any case, I don't see any benefit to the 7.62x51mm barrels being easily exchanged.

I dunno. It seems to be a 'massive' thing among SCAR fanbois, so I'm guessing swapping barrels (and configs) is normally a fairly involved process. Most accounts I've read put the SCAR system in at under 5 minutes for full configuration changes.

Quote:

There are .50 Beowulf, .450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM uppers for AR-15 type weapons.

Copy, and that makes a big difference for replacing worn parts rapidly. However if your enthusiast has access to a gunsmith (or is one himself) that problem might not be a problem.

Quote:

Yes, but I have no idea whether it's easy or practical to make versions of the FN SCAR-H in other chamberings than 7.62x51mm or if it is even possible to modify the gas system to get it to work reliably at extremely short barrel lengths, let alone suppressed with ultra-sort barrels.

The SCAR system was originally meant to be "easy to rechamber" (or at least have a plethora of offerings)... however as it has so far shaken out, that is only 5.56 and 7.62.

Granted at this point the system is only 10 years old.

Quote:

For the AR-15, it's simply a matter of looking up the recommendations of someone who has already done it and the AR-10, while not quite that commonly modified, seems to be heavily gunsmithed at least an order of magnitude more often than the FN SCAR-H.

As far as I can tell everything is gunsmithed on an order of magnitude greater than the SCAR.

Icelander · 03-28-2017, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Negative. However as the 45 Raptor by design was made to work as a higher "up calibered" .308 (rim specs are identical) and the SCAR-H* is .308 natively...

I don't doubt that it would be possible to rechamber a SCAR-H in 45 Raptor. It doesn't look like it would be preferable to other options, however.

Vasquez doesn't really care about quick-swapping barrels unless he can go down to one that would allow easy concealment of the weapon, as easy as a small Bulk -3 weapon, such as a large handgun or whippet shotgun.

While a folding stock carbine with 10" to 14.5" barrel in GURPS is Bulk -4*, in real world terms, that's a lot harder to conceal than a PDW with 6" of barrel. Probably good enough for a +/- 1 to Holdout by a fair GM.

If it's impractical to use the same weapon, with only a barrel change, as a 12" to 14.5" barrel recce rifle or accurized carbine capable of headshots out to 200+ yds and an ultra concealable PDW, Vasquez can bring two different weapons. I just thought it might be cool if the same weapon would work for both.

If it's possible to get good suppressed subsonic performance from an 6-8" barrel in .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf, that still looks attractive, especially if it's easy to switch between an 6-8" barrel and a 12-14" one, and you wouldn't have to change anything else.

Otherwise, two different weapons, one .50 Beowulf or .458 SOCOM carbine and one PDW weapon in a heavy caliber, might be the answer.

For the ultra-concealable weapon, something very small and handy with a folding foregrip and a removable, collapsible or folding stock, say something like an MP7A2, Beretta 93R, MP5K, Micro-UZI, except in .45 ACP or higher caliber. I know that there are plenty of good options chambered in 4.6-6mm, but that's not going to be much good suppressed and subsonic.

One possibility would be an add-on stock for a heavy pistol, such as a Desert Eagle in .50 AE or something in .454 Casull. I'm not sure how well that could be suppressed, though. There are rounds like the .510 Whisper and similar, though, but I'm not sure what the options are for weapons chambered for them, let alone in barrel lengths of 6-8". Obviously, this is a tactical role where US law greatly limits the commercially available options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I dunno. It seems to be a 'massive' thing among SCAR fanbois, so I'm guessing swapping barrels (and configs) is normally a fairly involved process. Most accounts I've read put the SCAR system in at under 5 minutes for full configuration changes.

For some weapons, certainly. For LMGs and GPMGs, though, changing barrels ought to take less than 10 seconds.

There exist, at least, weapons based on the AR-15 where changing the barrel is the work of a moment. I don't know if this is practical in .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf, especially as regards the gas system working with suppressor and subsonic loads as well as supersonic ones. Obviously, if you have to replace more than just the barrel, the idea is impractical and he's better off bringing two weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Copy, and that makes a big difference for replacing worn parts rapidly. However if your enthusiast has access to a gunsmith (or is one himself) that problem might not be a problem.

Vasquez can easily manage drop-in parts and simple gunsmithing, which is why he'd probably lean toward something easy like a weapon based on the AR-15, but he's not a very talented gunsmith who can design and build a completely new weapon that might be commerically successful. In game terms, he has Armoury -12, but is unfamiliar with many complex gunsmithing procedures, as he usually employs his skill to maintain his weapons, add accessories and drop-in parts or to figure out loads for his rifles.

He does have access to the services of people with Armoury from 14 to 17, but most of them would be quite annoyed with him if he made them spend time on customising a weapon when the capabilities were easily available by buying drop-in parts he could manage himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

As far as I can tell everything is gunsmithed on an order of magnitude greater than the SCAR.

In game terms, it's probably easier to gunsmith things where you can buy all the parts in any gunstore or online retailer and get step-by-step guides on the first page of Google results. When you have Armoury -12, you want that +4 TDM for simple and easy tasks.

Icelander · 03-29-2017, 10:02 PM

Does anyone have recommendations for high-quality commercial communication gear for undercover work, unobstrusive bodyguards and clandestine surveillance?

Or for the tactical extraction team that undercover operators can call in?

I'm looking for real-world manfucturers and model names, which I like to have for flavour, as well as GURPS stats.

Icelander · 04-03-2017, 08:09 AM

I can use Doug Cole's spreadsheet to work out the Dmg and make pretty good guesses at Range for the .460 Rowland.

Does anyone have an idea if the Rcl or ST should go up compared to the .45 ACP in a pistol? What about a MAC-10 inspired firearm?

What about the Malf. number?

Does anyone know why the MPA .460 Rowland was discontinued? Just lack of interest or was there something wrong with the design?

Would such a weapon cycle with .45 ACP rounds at 900-1,000 fps, with a suppressor? Would that lower Malf.?

Icelander · 04-04-2017, 07:11 AM

Here are some pistols that will come up in our play and haven't received GURPS stats yet.

H&K P2000, .40 S&W
Dmg: 2d+1 pi+
Acc: 2
Range: 150/1,700
Weight: 2.1/0.5
RoF: 3
Shots: 10+1
ST: 9
Bulk: -2
Rcl: 2
Cost: $700
LC: 3
Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable.

Smaller than a full-size service pistol like the Glock 17 or the Beretta 92-series, this is more comfortable to carry all day for an investigator who mostly works in an office.

H&K P2000 SK, .40 S&W
Dmg: 2d+1 pi+
Acc: 1
Range: 140/1,600
Weight: 1.9/0.5
RoF: 3
Shots: 9+1
ST: 9
Bulk: -1
Rcl: 2
Cost: $700
LC: 3
Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable.

The subcompact P2000 SK, like the Glock 26/27, is very popular with higher-ranking officers, as it is even less uncomfortable than a weapon in a compact size range. The short sight radius and small size makes it harder to shoot accurately at any range, but this is not a concern for typical users.

H&K HK45, .45 ACP
Dmg: 2d pi+
Acc: 2
Range: 150/1,600
Weight: 2.4/0.7
RoF: 3
Shots: 10+1
ST: 10
Bulk: -2
Rcl: 3
Cost: $1,200
LC: 3
Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable.

This pistol was developed by H&K to meet the requirements set forth in the US Military Joint Combat Pistol Program. The system was suspended infinitely, but the HK45 and deriatives have been sold commercially and to law enforcement customers. The design of the pistol is based on the USP. The pistol comes standard with a Picatinny accessory rail under the barrel and the weapon is also available with tritium illuminated improved-visibility night sights (+$100) and in a H45 Tactical version, with threaded barrel and raised sights for a suppressor (Cost $1,400).

H&K HK45C, .45 ACP
Dmg: 2d pi+
Acc: 2
Range: 140/1,500
Weight: 2.1/0.6
RoF: 3
Shots: 8+1
ST: 10
Bulk: -2
Rcl: 3
Cost: $1,200
LC: 3
Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable.

The HK45C is a slightly smaller version of the HK45, about the size of a Glock 19. Like the larger HK45, the weapon comes with a Picatinny rail under the barrel and is available with improved-visibility night sights (+$100). The Tactical version, HK45CT, with improved-visibility sights, threaded barrel and raised sights for a suppressor (Shots 10+1; Weight 2.2/0.7; Cost $1,500) was bought by the Navy SEALs and is used by them as a suppressed weapon platform. In US Navy SEAL service, it is issued with a 'wet' quick-detach baffle suppressor, the AAC Ti-Rant 45S (-3 Hearing when dry, -4 wet, -1 Bulk, Cost $800, Weight 0.6 lbs.).

1911 'Government', .460 Rowland
Dmg: 3d pi+
Acc: 2
Range: 200/2,200
Weight: 3.2/0.6
RoF: 3
Shots: 7+1
ST: 10
Bulk: -2
Rcl: 4
Cost: $1,200
LC: 3
Notes: No lanyard ring, integral muzzle compensator (TS p. 76).

This is a steel-frame 1911 Government pistol converted to fire .460 Rowland cartridges (WPS 0.5, CPS $1), a proprietary cartridge designed to replicate .44 Magnum ballistics in an automatic pistol. Many 1911-pattern pistols can be converted to this cartridge, as well as Springfield XDs, S&W M&P and the Glock 21 and 30, usually for $300-$400, adding 0.2-0.4 lbs. to empty Weight. The pistol can still chamber and fire .45 ACP rounds and converting it back requires changing the barrel and slide, which takes only 30 seconds with an Armoury (Smallarms) check +4 or IQ-based Guns (Pistol). The listed stats assume fairly modest self-defence ammunition from Corbon, Underwood or other and already assume the effects of the compensator on the listed ST score. The pistol is 1.5" longer than an unconverted 1911, due to the compensator, and will usually fit in the same holsters.

Rowland LLC and other manufacturers, such as Buffalo Bore, sell higher powered ammunition, up to 255 grain HC (Hard Cast Flat Nose) at 1,300 fps (Dmg 3d+2 pi+, Range 240/2,100, ST 11, CPS $2.4) and expanding rounds such as the 230 grain Nosler JHP at 1,400 fps or the 240 grain Hornady XTP Magnum JHP at 1,350 fps (both Dmg 3d pi++, Range 220/2,300, ST 11, CPS $1.2). In a game using fine-grained Wound Channel Modifiers, these heavy bullets with modern expansion rates would rate above pi++ Damage Type and even the HC bullet rates pi++. Absent such rules, some of the most interesting loadings in GURPS terms are a 185 grain Nosler JHP at 1,575 fps (Dmg 3d+1 pi++, Range 220/2,300, ST 11) and a 200 grain Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator (solid copper bullet) at 1,400 fps (3d+2 pi+, Range 220/2,300, ST 11).

MPA10 custom SMG, .460 Rowland
Dmg: 3d+2 pi+
Acc: 3
Range: 230/2,400
Weight: 8.5/2.3
RoF: 14
Shots: 30+1
ST: 9†
Bulk: -4*
Rcl: 3
Cost: $1,400
LC: 2
Notes: No lanyard ring, integral muzzle compensator (TS p. 76), Unreliable (Malf. 16).

This is a Master Piece Arms MPA10 .45 ACP pistol chambered in .460 Rowland, converted to select-fire and with a retractable stock added. The latter two modifications have legal implications in the US and the listed cost is for a buyer with the necessary legal clearances. Even if a civilian had the necessary NFA/FFL licences, the rarity of registered auto-sears on the US market means that it would add +$3,000 at minimum to the weapon Cost.

The weapon is designed to mount a small optic, like the Trijicon RMR reflex sight (+1 Guns, reduces -3 in darkness penalties, Weight 0.15 lbs., Cost $700) and threaded to accept a Silencerco Hybrid baffle suppressor (-2 Hearing (-3 Hearing with subsonic .45 ACP), ROF 15, Cost $1,000, Weight 1.1 lbs.). Because the weapon is just over the breakpoint for Bulk-4*, the suppressor does not add further to Bulk, but it does penalise Holdout by -1. The compensator must be removed to fit it with suppressor, this takes a total of 30 seconds and requires an Armoury (Smallarms) +4 or IQ-based Guns (SMG) roll. With accessories, the SMG weighs 9.7 lbs. and has total Cost $3,100. If not simply converted, but actually rebuilt for select-fire by a qualified gunsmith, the weapon would not be Unreliable and would have Cost $2,000 (total Cost $3,800 with accessories).

The listed stats are for two-handed use with the stock extended. Firing it two handed with the stock retracted is Acc 2, ST 10†, but without a foregrip or suppressor to grip, a critical failure may mean injury to the user from firing gasses (1d-3 burn) or even shooting himself in the hand in the worst case (GM's decision). If fired one-handed with the stock retracted; Acc 2, ST 12, Rcl 4. The weapon requires either the compensator or suppressor to add weight to the barrel to ensure reliable cycling. If fired without either, it reduces Malf. by a further -2.

The ammunition assumed by the stats is high-powered FMJ ammunition, but note that this is not often available commercially and would generally have to be handloaded. The weapon is more likely to use such real-world loads as 200 grain Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator, solid copper bullets (Dmg 4d pi+; CPS $2), at just under 1,500 fps from the 6" barrel, or 185 grain Nosler JHP at 1,630 fps from the 6" barrel (Dmg 3d+1 pi++).

The weapon will chamber and fire .45 ACP ammunition, but at -1 Malf. for high-quality commerical ammunition at 230 grain bullets and muzzle velocity close to 1,000 fps and -2 Malf. for less powerful or cheaper ammunition. Using high-end commercial 230 grain JHP at velocities around 1,000, stats are Dmg 2d+1 pi++; Range 150/1,600; RoF 10; ST 8†; Rcl 2; Malf. 15. If fired one-handed with the stock retracted while loaded with .45 ACP ammo; Acc 2, ST 10, Rcl 3.

Comments? Thoughts?

Icelander · 04-11-2017, 10:57 AM

For many years, variable magnification for telescopic sights came in multiplies of three. GURPS High-Tech (p. 155-156) doesn't make this a requirement, but does limit variable-power scopes to three different magnifications.

More and more popular variable power scopes now come in a wider range of possible magnification. There are 1-8x scopes, 1-10x, 2.5-25x, 3-18x, 3-20x, 3-27x, 3.5-25x, 4-16x, 4.5-30x, 5-20x, 5-25x, 5-50x, 8-80x, etc.

I'm wondering about real-world models and where they land in the spectrum of possible GURPS measurable effects. For instance, which real-world scopes available at TL8 do not reduce darkness penalties by at least -1? Which real-world scope qualify for a -2 reduction in darkness penalties?

And how about ruggedness and HT? Which models are as rugged as the Leupold and Nightforce scopes mentioned in GURPS Tactical Shooting as mounted on military sniper rifles?

Which are not rugged enough for tactical use?

How does the Horus Vision Raptor 4-16x stack up, for example? Would it reduce darkness penalties by -1 or by -2? What HT, DR and HP should it have?

I'm looking for optics for two tactical roles. In game terms, one giving up to +3 Acc and one up to +4 Acc.

One is for a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) type rifle, probably an AR-15 build, but maybe based on the FN SCAR. Most likely chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO or another similar cartridge that would fit in an AR-15 action, with possibilities including 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, [.300 Blackout] (if meant to be used suppressed as well) and several other rounds with high velocity and good ballistics. Chambering will also depend heavily on barrel length, with 12-14.5" barrels rendering some rounds basically pointless, but performing fairly well with certain loadings in 5.56mm and 6.8 SPC.

Any such weapon would need optics that could reach out to 600 yards, with the option for trying 800 yard shots in special circumstances. I imagine that a 1-8x, 3-9x or 3.5-10x would be strong contenders here. Light weight and compact design are plusses, but I'd want enough ruggedness so it could be used on a rifle that would be carried on a patrol sling during operations, not in a padded carry bag. A Leupold Mark 4 or other optics from Leupold sound good, but having numerous options (so not every character has the same preferences) would be good too.

The other would be for an accurized semi-automatic 7.62x51mm/.308 rifle, either an AR-10 design, one based on the SR-25 or other battle rifle designs, firing match ammunition out to 800-1,000 yards. Barrel length would be 16-18", like the M14 EBR, SR-25K /SR-25 ECC /SR-25 E2 and other KAC offerings. It would need optics capable of resching out to a 1,000 yards, even if it was more likely to be used at 100-200 yards most of the time, with 200-400 yards occasionally and 400-800 yards desirable.

The Horus Vision Raptor would be a suggestion for the latter weapon. I'd be interested to hear if there are better options for the role, i.e. variable scopes between +2 to +4 Acc. Compact and light weight would be good, but not at the cost of reliability and ruggedness. Astronomical Cost is not desirable, but something with these capabilities will rarely be cheap.

Icelander · 05-18-2017, 02:27 AM

There is a character in the campaign who weighs 159 lbs., but due to supersoldier abilities has ST 20.

We want to leverage this superhuman ST when it comes to equipping the character. On her first adventure, she is supposed to be undercover in a cartel-run border town in Mexico. She will probably use an identity developed while she was a DEA agent, as an outlaw biker seeking to buy meth and cocaine in bulk.

Does anyone have suggestions for a weapon/weapons that she could carry concealed or at least in a hidden compartment in her motorcycle that a less powerful character couldn't handle?

The character is tailor-made for shooting awesome, but impractical firearms that are a bad idea for normal people. Something the approximate size of an FR MC-51 carbine, but chambered for something even more energetic than 7.62x51mm would be awesome.

03-28-2017, 10:24 AM	#81
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	Big Bore Tactical Carbine (.50 Beowulf, .458 SOCOM, 45 Raptor or similar) I'm arming a sharpshooter/sniper/surveillance tech with a back-up weapon that is more useful than a pistol. His fellow team members would probably choose the MP7A2 personal defence weapon for this role, but as this character belongs to 'the Activity' and the mission is blacker than black, there would be no objections to him carrying a commercial weapon acquired through sanitised methods. This particular character, SFC Eduardo Vasquez, is fond of large bore weapons. Vasquez favourite chamberings are .50 BMGs, .338 Lapua Magnum and the emerging ultra long-range sniping rounds like .416 Barret or .408 CheyTac. He considers the .300 Win Mag a cute little round and basically insisted that he'd need a sniper rifle in that caliber and not a smaller .308 weapon. Which is why he's toting his M2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle in .300 Win Mag instead of a lighter primary weapon. Vasquez will be carrying his personal* Guncrafter Industries Model 2 in .50 GI as a sidearm and a H&K P2000 SK in .40 S&W as his ankle gun. Vasquez is not fond of indiscriminate automatic fire and, perhaps surprisingly, is not in love with big explosions, either. No, he truly loves to shoot big bore rounds accurately and watch the results. No, he's not a hunter or target shooter. He likes to shoot people.** Vasquez isn't really undercover on this mission and he isn't expected to have to engage any targets. He's just meant to man surveillance gear and provide visual surveillance from time to time. There is a possibility that he might be expected to provide security, however, or to provide overwatch during a hypothetical extraction operation. If so, a full-length sniper rifle may be unecessary or at least difficult to get into the operational area. The most likely shooting situation would be in the streets of a small village or town, at ranges no longer than 100 yards. There is a theoretical possibility that ranges of 100-200 and 200-300 might be involved, with firefights in the desert at longer ranges being not impossible, but definitely a job for a real sniper rifle. Soft body armour is not unlikely. Suppressed capability is a must. Being able to conceal the weapon in a sports bag, on the floor of a car or otherwise, is vital. In fact, some situations might call for concealing a weapon under a coat. At the very least, Vasquez will require a weapon that he can fit under a coat, but is still accurate enough for rapid engagement and decisive neutralisation of multiple targets at ranges up to 100 yds. Obviously, accurate engagement of armoured targets at 200+ yards is not necessarily compatible with concealment under a coat. On the other hand, if the weapon has a collapsible or folding stock and comes with more than one barrel, the same weapon could serve as a Bulk -4* PDW and Bulk -5* recce rifle, with only a few minutes or even shorter time to change barrels. I'd be thinking 6" to 9" barrel for the shorter version and 12" to 14.5" heavy match barrel for the long-range configuration. Both barrels would have to be able to mount a good suppressor. An AR-15 type rifle would allow for easy accessorizing, including a good folding stock which is also usable for accurate long-range shooting. I suppose an AR-10 type rifle would have much the same benefit. What kind of rifle would people recommend as the base weapon? Which round, the .50 Beowulf, the .458 SOCOM, the 45 Raptor or something else? I'm wondering which might offer the best selection of parts, like barrels and supressors. Also, which offers the best subsonic performance? Does anyone know how quickly you could exchange barrels in an Alexander Arms Entry Carbine? If there is an AR-15 or AR-10 type weapon chambered for something serious that would be especially easy to perform a quick barrel change with? What about concealment, what do people recommend in modifications for an easily concealed SBR AR-15? And which of these heavy rounds functions best from a very short barrel? If anyone finds out, he's toast. There is a major* difference between 'clandestinely acquired weapon available commercially' and 'personally bought weapon from a tiny speciality manufacturer who will probably remember you'. There's a reason Delta rejected Vasquez, even though he seemed perfecly qualified on paper and technically passed the psych eval. *He has never told anyone this during a psych eval and he tries to avoid mentioning it to superiors who might not appreciate it, because while he might be crazy, he's crazy like a fox and not stupid. __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 03-28-2017 at 10:51 AM.*

03-29-2017, 10:02 PM	#86
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	Radios, tactical headsets and concealable mikes Does anyone have recommendations for high-quality commercial communication gear for undercover work, unobstrusive bodyguards and clandestine surveillance? Or for the tactical extraction team that undercover operators can call in? I'm looking for real-world manfucturers and model names, which I like to have for flavour, as well as GURPS stats. __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

04-03-2017, 08:09 AM	#87
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	.460 Rowland and the MPA [MAC-10] .460 Rowland I can use Doug Cole's spreadsheet to work out the Dmg and make pretty good guesses at Range for the .460 Rowland. Does anyone have an idea if the Rcl or ST should go up compared to the .45 ACP in a pistol? What about a MAC-10 inspired firearm? What about the Malf. number? Does anyone know why the MPA .460 Rowland was discontinued? Just lack of interest or was there something wrong with the design? Would such a weapon cycle with .45 ACP rounds at 900-1,000 fps, with a suppressor? Would that lower Malf.? __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 04-04-2017 at 01:37 AM.

04-04-2017, 07:11 AM	#88
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	Stats for Pistols (one converted into an SMG) Here are some pistols that will come up in our play and haven't received GURPS stats yet. H&K P2000, .40 S&W Dmg: 2d+1 pi+ Acc: 2 Range: 150/1,700 Weight: 2.1/0.5 RoF: 3 Shots: 10+1 ST: 9 Bulk: -2 Rcl: 2 Cost: $700 LC: 3 Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable. Smaller than a full-size service pistol like the Glock 17 or the Beretta 92-series, this is more comfortable to carry all day for an investigator who mostly works in an office. H&K P2000 SK, .40 S&W Dmg: 2d+1 pi+ Acc: 1 Range: 140/1,600 Weight: 1.9/0.5 RoF: 3 Shots: 9+1 ST: 9 Bulk: -1 Rcl: 2 Cost: $700 LC: 3 Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable. The subcompact P2000 SK, like the Glock 26/27, is very popular with higher-ranking officers, as it is even less uncomfortable than a weapon in a compact size range. The short sight radius and small size makes it harder to shoot accurately at any range, but this is not a concern for typical users. H&K HK45, .45 ACP Dmg: 2d pi+ Acc: 2 Range: 150/1,600 Weight: 2.4/0.7 RoF: 3 Shots: 10+1 ST: 10 Bulk: -2 Rcl: 3 Cost: $1,200 LC: 3 Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable. This pistol was developed by H&K to meet the requirements set forth in the US Military Joint Combat Pistol Program. The system was suspended infinitely, but the HK45 and deriatives have been sold commercially and to law enforcement customers. The design of the pistol is based on the USP. The pistol comes standard with a Picatinny accessory rail under the barrel and the weapon is also available with tritium illuminated improved-visibility night sights (+$100) and in a H45 Tactical version, with threaded barrel and raised sights for a suppressor (Cost $1,400). H&K HK45C, .45 ACP Dmg: 2d pi+ Acc: 2 Range: 140/1,500 Weight: 2.1/0.6 RoF: 3 Shots: 8+1 ST: 10 Bulk: -2 Rcl: 3 Cost: $1,200 LC: 3 Notes: No lanyard ring, Very Reliable. The HK45C is a slightly smaller version of the HK45, about the size of a Glock 19. Like the larger HK45, the weapon comes with a Picatinny rail under the barrel and is available with improved-visibility night sights (+$100). The Tactical version, HK45CT, with improved-visibility sights, threaded barrel and raised sights for a suppressor (Shots 10+1; Weight 2.2/0.7; Cost $1,500) was bought by the Navy SEALs and is used by them as a suppressed weapon platform. In US Navy SEAL service, it is issued with a 'wet' quick-detach baffle suppressor, the AAC Ti-Rant 45S (-3 Hearing when dry, -4 wet, -1 Bulk, Cost $800, Weight 0.6 lbs.). 1911 'Government', .460 Rowland Dmg: 3d pi+ Acc: 2 Range: 200/2,200 Weight: 3.2/0.6 RoF: 3 Shots: 7+1 ST: 10 Bulk: -2 Rcl: 4 Cost: $1,200 LC: 3 Notes: No lanyard ring, integral muzzle compensator (TS p. 76). This is a steel-frame 1911 Government pistol converted to fire .460 Rowland cartridges (WPS 0.5, CPS $1), a proprietary cartridge designed to replicate .44 Magnum ballistics in an automatic pistol. Many 1911-pattern pistols can be converted to this cartridge, as well as Springfield XDs, S&W M&P and the Glock 21 and 30, usually for $300-$400, adding 0.2-0.4 lbs. to empty Weight. The pistol can still chamber and fire .45 ACP rounds and converting it back requires changing the barrel and slide, which takes only 30 seconds with an Armoury (Smallarms) check +4 or IQ-based Guns (Pistol). The listed stats assume fairly modest self-defence ammunition from Corbon, Underwood or other and already assume the effects of the compensator on the listed ST score. The pistol is 1.5" longer than an unconverted 1911, due to the compensator, and will usually fit in the same holsters. Rowland LLC and other manufacturers, such as Buffalo Bore, sell higher powered ammunition, up to 255 grain HC (Hard Cast Flat Nose) at 1,300 fps (Dmg 3d+2 pi+, Range 240/2,100, ST 11, CPS $2.4) and expanding rounds such as the 230 grain Nosler JHP at 1,400 fps or the 240 grain Hornady XTP Magnum JHP at 1,350 fps (both Dmg 3d pi++, Range 220/2,300, ST 11, CPS $1.2). In a game using fine-grained Wound Channel Modifiers, these heavy bullets with modern expansion rates would rate above pi++ Damage Type and even the HC bullet rates pi++. Absent such rules, some of the most interesting loadings in GURPS terms are a 185 grain Nosler JHP at 1,575 fps (Dmg 3d+1 pi++, Range 220/2,300, ST 11) and a 200 grain Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator (solid copper bullet) at 1,400 fps (3d+2 pi+, Range 220/2,300, ST 11). MPA10 custom SMG, .460 Rowland Dmg: 3d+2 pi+ Acc: 3 Range: 230/2,400 Weight: 8.5/2.3 RoF: 14 Shots: 30+1 ST: 9† Bulk: -4* Rcl: 3 Cost: $1,400 LC: 2 Notes: No lanyard ring, integral muzzle compensator (TS p. 76), Unreliable (Malf. 16). This is a Master Piece Arms MPA10 .45 ACP pistol chambered in .460 Rowland, converted to select-fire and with a retractable stock added. The latter two modifications have legal implications in the US and the listed cost is for a buyer with the necessary legal clearances. Even if a civilian had the necessary NFA/FFL licences, the rarity of registered auto-sears on the US market means that it would add +$3,000 at minimum to the weapon Cost. The weapon is designed to mount a small optic, like the Trijicon RMR reflex sight (+1 Guns, reduces -3 in darkness penalties, Weight 0.15 lbs., Cost $700) and threaded to accept a Silencerco Hybrid baffle suppressor (-2 Hearing (-3 Hearing with subsonic .45 ACP), ROF 15, Cost $1,000, Weight 1.1 lbs.). Because the weapon is just over the breakpoint for Bulk-4, the suppressor does not add further to Bulk, but it does penalise Holdout by -1. The compensator must be removed to fit it with suppressor, this takes a total of 30 seconds and requires an Armoury (Smallarms) +4 or IQ-based Guns (SMG) roll. With accessories, the SMG weighs 9.7 lbs. and has total Cost $3,100. If not simply converted, but actually rebuilt for select-fire by a qualified gunsmith, the weapon would not be Unreliable and would have Cost $2,000 (total Cost $3,800 with accessories). The listed stats are for two-handed use with the stock extended. Firing it two handed with the stock retracted is Acc 2, ST 10†, but without a foregrip or suppressor to grip, a critical failure may mean injury to the user from firing gasses (1d-3 burn) or even shooting himself in the hand in the worst case (GM's decision). If fired one-handed* with the stock retracted; Acc 2, ST 12, Rcl 4. The weapon requires either the compensator or suppressor to add weight to the barrel to ensure reliable cycling. If fired without either, it reduces Malf. by a further -2. The ammunition assumed by the stats is high-powered FMJ ammunition, but note that this is not often available commercially and would generally have to be handloaded. The weapon is more likely to use such real-world loads as 200 grain Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator, solid copper bullets (Dmg 4d pi+; CPS $2), at just under 1,500 fps from the 6" barrel, or 185 grain Nosler JHP at 1,630 fps from the 6" barrel (Dmg 3d+1 pi++). The weapon will chamber and fire .45 ACP ammunition, but at -1 Malf. for high-quality commerical ammunition at 230 grain bullets and muzzle velocity close to 1,000 fps and -2 Malf. for less powerful or cheaper ammunition. Using high-end commercial 230 grain JHP at velocities around 1,000, stats are Dmg 2d+1 pi++; Range 150/1,600; RoF 10; ST 8†; Rcl 2; Malf. 15. If fired one-handed with the stock retracted while loaded with .45 ACP ammo; Acc 2, ST 10, Rcl 3. Comments? Thoughts? __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 04-07-2021 at 12:25 PM.

04-11-2017, 10:57 AM	#89
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	Modern Variable Magnification Scopes For many years, variable magnification for telescopic sights came in multiplies of three. GURPS High-Tech (p. 155-156) doesn't make this a requirement, but does limit variable-power scopes to three different magnifications. More and more popular variable power scopes now come in a wider range of possible magnification. There are 1-8x scopes, 1-10x, 2.5-25x, 3-18x, 3-20x, 3-27x, 3.5-25x, 4-16x, 4.5-30x, 5-20x, 5-25x, 5-50x, 8-80x, etc. I'm wondering about real-world models and where they land in the spectrum of possible GURPS measurable effects. For instance, which real-world scopes available at TL8 do not reduce darkness penalties by at least -1? Which real-world scope qualify for a -2 reduction in darkness penalties? And how about ruggedness and HT? Which models are as rugged as the Leupold and Nightforce scopes mentioned in GURPS Tactical Shooting as mounted on military sniper rifles? Which are not rugged enough for tactical use? How does the Horus Vision Raptor 4-16x stack up, for example? Would it reduce darkness penalties by -1 or by -2? What HT, DR and HP should it have? I'm looking for optics for two tactical roles. In game terms, one giving up to +3 Acc and one up to +4 Acc. One is for a Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) type rifle, probably an AR-15 build, but maybe based on the FN SCAR. Most likely chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO or another similar cartridge that would fit in an AR-15 action, with possibilities including 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, [.300 Blackout] (if meant to be used suppressed as well) and several other rounds with high velocity and good ballistics. Chambering will also depend heavily on barrel length, with 12-14.5" barrels rendering some rounds basically pointless, but performing fairly well with certain loadings in 5.56mm and 6.8 SPC. Any such weapon would need optics that could reach out to 600 yards, with the option for trying 800 yard shots in special circumstances. I imagine that a 1-8x, 3-9x or 3.5-10x would be strong contenders here. Light weight and compact design are plusses, but I'd want enough ruggedness so it could be used on a rifle that would be carried on a patrol sling during operations, not in a padded carry bag. A Leupold Mark 4 or other optics from Leupold sound good, but having numerous options (so not every character has the same preferences) would be good too. The other would be for an accurized semi-automatic 7.62x51mm/.308 rifle, either an AR-10 design, one based on the SR-25 or other battle rifle designs, firing match ammunition out to 800-1,000 yards. Barrel length would be 16-18", like the M14 EBR, SR-25K /SR-25 ECC /SR-25 E2 and other KAC offerings. It would need optics capable of resching out to a 1,000 yards, even if it was more likely to be used at 100-200 yards most of the time, with 200-400 yards occasionally and 400-800 yards desirable. The Horus Vision Raptor would be a suggestion for the latter weapon. I'd be interested to hear if there are better options for the role, i.e. variable scopes between +2 to +4 Acc. Compact and light weight would be good, but not at the cost of reliability and ruggedness. Astronomical Cost is not desirable, but something with these capabilities will rarely be cheap. __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 12-27-2017 at 04:00 PM.

05-18-2017, 02:27 AM	#90
Icelander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Iceland*	Compact but powerful ordnance for ST 20 There is a character in the campaign who weighs 159 lbs., but due to supersoldier abilities has ST 20. We want to leverage this superhuman ST when it comes to equipping the character. On her first adventure, she is supposed to be undercover in a cartel-run border town in Mexico. She will probably use an identity developed while she was a DEA agent, as an outlaw biker seeking to buy meth and cocaine in bulk. Does anyone have suggestions for a weapon/weapons that she could carry concealed or at least in a hidden compartment in her motorcycle that a less powerful character couldn't handle? The character is tailor-made for shooting awesome, but impractical firearms that are a bad idea for normal people. Something the approximate size of an FR MC-51 carbine, but chambered for something even more energetic than 7.62x51mm would be awesome. __________________ Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!