Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

[Wraithe]

So I post my little off the cuff thing, and was about ask: How do you decide when an arrow is STUCK, did a bit of a search beforehand, and found this thread, which migrated over to handling arrows in the body (Original Thread started talking about Arrow Damage).

The main posts that address it are #38 & #40.

They look pretty workable to me.

[combatmedic]

Arrows don't kill people, archers kill people.

[jason taylor]

By the way, combatmedic, do you have any professional insights? I doubt that you have had to deal with arrows specifically, but your opinion might be interesting anyway.

[Blood Legend]

The way it would go in my campaign, an arrow doing enough damage to go out the other end can be removed without further damage (but not further pain).

An arrow that gets stuck, like a broadhead, will do half original damage being pushed through a limb and original damage being yanked out the way it went in. Pushing the arrow through the other side of the torso might not be such a wise idea*

A surgery roll and proper tools would half any damage, critical success negates.

First aid is not used to remove the arrow, it's used to plug up the hole if it's not greivous.

In a cinematic game, arrows never poke out the other side but then they dont do any more damage being pulled out either. They porcupine the target which never results in much more than nuisance penalties though the regular damage an arrow will do is serious on its own.

*This is off the cuff, I have no idea what proper arrow removal is supposedly like, I imagine the procedures are something like combat-fish hooks.

[panton41]

I've considered this idea because I often use GURPS as a way of loosely reality checking story ideas and came up with the following assumptions:

Compare the damage to what the over penetration rules state and determine from there. I understand an arrow is less likely than a bullet to totally blow through one side and out the other and keep going, but I think its certainly good enough of a way to decide if the arrowhead has gone all the way through. Assuming it has the idea is to remove the arrowhead and pull the shaft back out.

The talk of Agincourt we often forget the man behind the battle, King Henry V. Part of why he was such a good general was he'd lead men before during the uprisings surrounding his father's reign. (Henry IV was exiled to France, returned while the king was on campaign in Ireland and basically took over England and on the king's return had him imprisoned and beheaded.) During the wars to quell the rebellion that obviously resulted, his son who'd been in Ireland with the king and had sided with his father on return, lead armies against the rebels.

In one of those battles he was shot in the face by an arrow. The surgeon designed a device to extract the arrow and removed it (a lesser man would have been left to die). Kind makes you understand why he not only replied so heavily on his archers, but could also so readily rally his men when he wore a nearly mortal war scar on his face.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

For pushing the arrow through, I'd look at how much damage it would have to do to overpenetrate the target, and simply increase the injury taken from the arrow to that number.

[panton41]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

For pushing the arrow through, I'd look at how much damage it would have to do to overpenetrate the target, and simply increase the injury taken from the arrow to that number.

That's kind of the follow up to my logic on the other part.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

By the way, combatmedic, do you have any professional insights? I doubt that you have had to deal with arrows specifically, but your opinion might be interesting anyway.

No, they takfiri aren't down to bows and arrows just yet [too bad]. I have dealt with perforating wounds, impalements ,etc.

Basically, as I had earlier stated:

• • look for exit wound [ this discussion is assuming that the arrow has not exited]
  • CONTROL BLEEDING
• stabilize in place with bulky dressings
• do not remove under field conditions- unless there is an airway compromise
• transport casualty to nearest surgical team/hospital/aid station eqipuipped for the injury
• shortening an impaled object should only be done with proper tools, and only if the object is so long that it actually inhibits transport of the patient

That applies to arrow wound, pencils, rebar,etc. I would never recommend just yanking or shoving an arrow, except possibly in very unusual circumstances. You may cause further injury to the casualty. Blood vessels and nerves might be damaged or severed by splinters or the arrowhead, moving inside the wound. Removal should be done, whenever possible, by a trained surgeon in a controlled, clean environment. Don't forget about the risk of infection.

EDIT- Sorry for repeating myself, but I'd like to make certain that everyone understands how this should be handled, in case one of you runs across an arrow sticking out of a buddy in real life! The whole 'just yank it out ' myth is as bad as the idea of 'just shove it back in' with eviscerations, and nearly as common as 'just lean back' for nosebleeds.

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

For pushing the arrow through, I'd look at how much damage it would have to do to overpenetrate the target, and simply increase the injury taken from the arrow to that number.

Hmm, now this is interesting - I was going to suggest for pushing an arrow through, that we use the Holding A Foe At Bay (MA106, sidebar) rules, where you simply increase the damage to the maximum possible injury from the original attack.

Using the overpenetration rules from B408, that seems to mean for a 10HP human, you'd increase the basic damage to 10, which would make pushing it through a Really Bad Idea for the injured party. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Wraithe

Hmm, now this is interesting - I was going to suggest for pushing an arrow through, that we use the Holding A Foe At Bay (MA106, sidebar) rules, where you simply increase the damage to the maximum possible injury from the original attack.

Personally, I'd probably use something more like the blowthrough rules from HT (modified to be based on Basic Damage rather than Injury) than just maximize damage... but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Wraithe

Using the overpenetration rules from B408, that seems to mean for a 10HP human, you'd increase the basic damage to 10, which would make pushing it through a Really Bad Idea for the injured party. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

This is precisely why you don't just push it through on a torso wound. A limb/extremity would be less damaged, thanks to the fact that Impaling gets a low damage modifier there. Additionally, I'd probably mark blowthrough for a limb at 1/2 or even 1/4 that of the torso. That said, when you push it out, you probably have a 1 in 6 chance of accidentally hitting an artery. This increases the damage multiplier (adds +0.5x) and causes some very bad bleeding. As combatmedic said, you really want to handle this using Surgery in a clean environment if at all possible.