Arrow damage

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by zogo

I'll throw in that it is possible to drop someone with a bullet without killing them, but it depends a lot more on them then on the shot. After all no bullet has enough kinetic energy to knock someone over. Someone (really probably most people) who recieves a relatively minor wound can pass out, or collapse from pain/shock where someone else keeps moving with wounds that put them essentially beyond the help of medical science.

On a less realistic note, in many games killing someone may not be sufficient to keep them down.

True, and I've run into things that didn't stop when I killed them :-0

[angel_lord]

Here is another little bit I found while searching for that 120lb compound bow. I think I'm going to give up on that search for now.

However, refering to the draw strength needed to harvest specific game animals I find the following:

The average bow of 15 years ago was struggling to shoot 220 fps, and even at those speeds many bowhunters got clean pass-thru’s on large game like Whitetail Deer. Today the average bow is shooting nearly 300 fps at 70# draw weight and 30" draw length. This means that even bows in shorter draw lengths and lower draw weights will still provide plenty of velocity to penetrate the ribcage of a Whitetail Deer. A modern single cam bow with a 50# peak draw weight and just a 26" draw length will still zip arrows well over 220 fps. Of course, if you plan to hunt larger game like Elk or Moose, or if you plan to take shots from longer distances, you will need additional kinetic energy for complete penetration to ensure a humane harvest. As a general rule, a 40-50# draw weight will provide sufficient energy to harvest deer and a 50-60# bow will provide sufficient energy to harvest larger elk-size species. Unless you're planning to hunt huge animals like Cape Buffalo, a 70+ pound bow really isn't necessary. You can be just as effective with a more moderate draw weight.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

120 lb pull compound bow? I find that unlikely, but okay. Compound bow pull is decieveing. First there are single cam compound bows, and then there are double cam compound bows. Each one effects bow power differently. It depends on how modern his compound bow is. Most newer bows have a 65% draw let-off ratio which would make a 120lb pull bow possible - but I can't think of any reason anyone would need that kind of draw.

Well, I said I wasn't a bow person, and I may be misremembering.
But his compound bow has 4 pulleys/wheels, if that tells you what type it is.

If it's a 65% draw let-off ratio, like you said, then that'd be under an 80 lbs pull.
Considering he's ~6'4", ~230lbs, and his normal performance blade is a two-handed sword, I wouldn't expect his bow to be average.

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Well, I said I wasn't a bow person, and I may be misremembering.
But his compound bow has 4 pulleys/wheels, if that tells you what type it is.

If it's a 65% draw let-off ratio, like you said, then that'd be under an 80 lbs pull.
Considering he's ~6'4", ~230lbs, and his normal performance blade is a two-handed sword, I wouldn't expect his bow to be average.

I just found an article that says 100# draw is the top draw weight for compound bows, so perhaps your friend has one of those instead???

Keep in mind that I don't know that it is really the top, I just can't find any in the online bow shops.

That is still a hefty bow, and you need at least a 500 grain arrow to make it accurate, but you won't get the same kind of velocity as you get from a 60# bow with a 350 grain arrow. The guy sounds huge. I wouldn't mind seeing someone shoot a bow that large just to see how it performs.

[GoatRider]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

The guy sounds huge. I wouldn't mind seeing someone shoot a bow that large just to see how it performs.

Probably looks like this guy

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by GoatRider

Probably looks like this guy

Not really, but if you really want a picture...

He's at the bottom of the portrait page, under Fenix, not using a bow though.

http://www.phoenixswords.com/portraits.shtml

[Kyle Aaron]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

Sorry I missed this earlier Bob, been stuck in the Uberthread

SJgames' forum's first Monster Thread. That's the thread that cracks the kilopost, births numerous children threads as people try to get addressed points lost in the noise there, and usually, someone gets banned from it. And it's remembered for years afterwards, referred to by old hands, and explained by them to newbies. "Back in the day..."

Really, the Gurps bow damage is fairly acurate when considered within the curve we are using for health.

Okay, that's basically what I wanted to know.

Btw- you say you and your have adjusted firearms damage. Can you tell me how, and did you modify modern armor similarily?

Yes. basically, we downsized it. As we saw it, SJ originally designed GURPS to be a D&D alternative, it was only secondarily a universal system. I mean, the example characters and adventures in the old books were all fantasy. It was, "look! we can do it better! And, er, you can play other stuff, too."

So, he did okay with the melee rules, armour, damage, etc. Then he came to guns. "Er," he said, "what do I do with them." Looks to me like he got suckered by the old myth that knights stopped wearing armour because of guns, and that they turn a man into mince - hey, it works for Chuck Norris. "Okay, so guns will do six or seven dice of damage. But hey, kevlar vest can stop that. Okay, DR 24."

That's okay as it goes, but the problem is, you get the intersect between the melee and firearms. So in principle a cop can stand there scratching his balls while some rioter hits him with a broken glass bottle. Yeah, yeah, I know, armour divisors and all that.

Basically, we looked at it, at the chances of surviving a torso hit by various weapons. Okay, let's think of the nine mil. Zap in the guts, 2d+2 pi damage. That's 4 to 14pts. So the average Joe almost certainly has a Major Wound, and will fall down half the time. He'll maybe go to negatives, but unless the GM uses bleeding rules, he has zero chance of dying. Only a shot to the Vitals or the Head/Neck would kill him with a nine mill pistol. Hmmm, sounds dodgy.

Then we come to the rifle. Let's consider our typical hunter, with a 308 with hollow point rounds. That's 7d pi+. He accidentally shoots his buddy, as some of the more idiotic hunters sometimes do. Wham, right in the guts. 7 to 49 points of basic damage, average 24.5. Buddy Bob ain't got no armour, of course (he didn't think the samba would shoot back). So that becomes 10 to 74pts of full damage, average 37 pts of damage. Buddy Bob ain't a tough guy, he's ST10, so he flops down to -27HP. He has to make two saves vs death. Assuming his HT10, that gives him a 50% chance of failing each - he has a 75% chance of failing at least one.

So, do we find that of all people shot in the torso with a 9mm pistol, almost none die (setting aside major wounds becoming mortal, etc), and that of guys shot with hunting rounds, 3/4 die? Well, nope. The mortality rate for both is a bit closer to the middle. And rounds simply don't do that kind of damage to people that GURPS rifle rounds do, which is basically to hamburger them.

So, our changes,

Blowthrough rules apply. For a single blow to the torso with impaling or piercing damage, damage of more than the character's total HP+1 is lost; and the blow may continue through to the other side.

• Head or vitals: damage over HPx3 is lost.
• Limbs: damage over HP/2+1 is lost.
• Hands/feet: damage over HP/3+1 is lost.
• No maximum for damage to brain, no any maximum for weapons doing more than 15d damage.
• No maximum for damage types other than impaling and piercing.

[b]Firearms damage
Basic damage is altered as follows:
Pistols and submachineguns, 2d pi.

• .22, 5.56mm, .38, do 2d pi-
• .45, 9mm, do 2d pi
• .50, and larger, do 2d pi+

Rifles, 3d pi

• .22, 5.56mm, 6mm, 3d pi
• .308, 6.7mm, 7.62mm, 3d pi+
• .457 and larger, 3d pi++
• Hollow point rounds up the damage a level.
• AP rounds add an armour divisor of (2), but drop damage down one level.

However, the bleeding optional rules are in effect. So, if hit with a pistol round, you may cripple a limb, but you're not likely to die. If hit with a rifle round, you'll almost certanily cripple a limb, will only rarely drop dead instantly. But in either case, you may fall down (knockdown etc rules are still in) and may very well bleed to death afterwards.

Multiple hits will usually take you down. And of course any hit to the vitals or head/neck is going to **** you up, if not kill you.

We're also pretty liberal with Fright Checks for people getting shot, especially civilian types, and some version of the Pacifism disadvantage is pretty much mandatory for starting characters. However, firearms are frequently used for Intimidation skill checks;)

This brings the deadliness of firearms in line with the deadliness of spears, etc. I've never understood why a half-inch hole made by a bullet is somehow more dangerous to you than a half-inch hole made by a knife. And if anyone says, "hydrostatic shock," I'll stab them. Keep your myths for Soldier of Fortune, please. No, hang on, not even they believe in that;)

So, people will usually survive hits outside the vitals or CNS, but then may bleed to death afterwards. So if a guy's hit with a round or two, 90% of the time he'll survive with immediate medical treatment; without it, 50% of the time or more he'll die.

As to armour, we're undecided on that. The campaign's pretty low-powered. We're thinking something along the lines of DR8/2 for tac vest, DR12/4 for ballistic vest, DR18/5 for the EOD gear.

As for an Arrow having more stopping power - I've read two books by ballistic and criminal forensic fexperts that say stopping power for any ballsitic weapon is a total and complete myth.

Here's an interesting article on that sort of subject. The authour's an FBI agent, so he should have some idea what he's talking about. Essentially, he says,

Originally Posted by Agent Patrick

In fact, physiological factors may actually play a relatively minor role in achieving rapid incapacitation. Barring central nervous system hits, there is no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen.

In other words, you need a hit on their brain or spinal cord to make them drop instantly. Otherwise, in the "vitals", as GURPS calls it - they lose blood and pass out. That's another reason I'm unhappy with one second combat rounds.

Patrick says,

Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

10 to 15 combat rounds is quite enough for my dying enemy to, well, make me die, too. Whereas if a combat round is, say, 5 seconds, then he just has two or three rounds to act.

In a roleplaying game, we're not interested in the gruesome details of wounding. All we want to know is,

• Can I keep fighting?
• Are my limbs all working?
• Can he keep fighting?
• Are his limbs all working?
• Now that the fight is over, will I die or have to have something amputated. That is, "Can I keep fighting?" and "Are all my limbs working?"

Anyway, that's the reasoning behind our changing the damage amounts.

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not really, but if you really want a picture...

He's at the bottom of the portrait page, under Fenix, not using a bow though.

http://www.phoenixswords.com/portraits.shtml

Well, he is fairly large. I can't tell about musculature from the garb he is wearing, but to pull a 100lb bow or higher (as in the 150 lb bows in another thread) he would ahve to be quite strong. I'm very afraid. . .

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

SJgames' forum's first Monster Thread. That's the thread that cracks the kilopost, births numerous children threads as people try to get addressed points lost in the noise there, and usually, someone gets banned from it. And it's remembered for years afterwards, referred to by old hands, and explained by them to newbies. "Back in the day..."

Yeah, Iwas waiting to be banned for a while there, but after I saw other posts I just went, "wow, my insults were pretty tame compared to these guys. I think I'm safe."

Okay, that's basically what I wanted to know.

Glad I could be of very little use ;-)

Yes. basically, we downsized it. As we saw it, SJ originally designed GURPS to be a D&D alternative, *snip*

So, do we find that of all people shot in the torso with a 9mm pistol, almost none die (setting aside major wounds becoming mortal, etc), and that of guys shot with hunting rounds, 3/4 die? Well, nope. The mortality rate for both is a bit closer to the middle. And rounds simply don't do that kind of damage to people that GURPS rifle rounds do, which is basically to hamburger them.

Very nice analysis. So far I'm right with you. . .

So, our changes, *snip*
Anyway, that's the reasoning behind our changing the damage amounts.

Any chance you have those changes files saved to a computer and can send them to me via e-mail?

Incidentally, Pattrick was one of the guys used as evidence in one fo the books I read, so it was a very nice summation of what I was getting at. . .

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

Well, he is fairly large. I can't tell about musculature from the garb he is wearing, but to pull a 100lb bow or higher (as in the 150 lb bows in another thread) he would have to be quite strong. I'm very afraid. . .

He really is a very nice guy. (Though no one does want to be on his bad side.)
As far as musculature, he's not a weightlifter type, so I know many people much stronger, he's just so damn big that he can do things people stronger than him have trouble doing.

Which is something which really doesn't get addressed.
The strong 4' 10" (1.47m) weightlifter has more trouble using a heavy pull bow than a normal 6' 3"(1.91m) athlete.