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Old 09-27-2018, 08:28 AM   #21
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The problem comes if the defender is waiting for a charge. Since your only legal options for a defense against a stop thrust is a block or a dodge, and since you cannot block and attack with a shield during the same turn, you are limited to your dodge, which is probably penalized by encumbrance. This even applies to using two weapons, as you cannot parry during a move-and-attack.
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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Where does it say you can't block and attack with a shield in the same turn? I can't find that anywhere - shields aren't listed as unbalanced, and it wouldn't matter if they were, because you don't parry with them anyway.
Yep, maybe I'm wrong bit I've always played it that way.

Half the point of charging in with a shield is it maintains protection.


A stop thrust implies a wait, and yeah it's certainly possible and a well timed wait can be a great thing. But you are giving up the initiative in the fight by doing so.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-27-2018 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 09-27-2018, 02:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

So I have been wondering...

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For what it's worth, in the viking-style martial art I'm learning (and teaching), we consider the shield the primary weapon (...)
Is it possible to declare one of your blows during DWA as a feint, and provide the other strike during DWA with its benefits?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
(...) a Feint is still an Attack. One being made during the turn you are making a Move and Attack Maneuver. (...)
I believe acrobatics itself is not an attack. That's why I believe an acrobatic feint should not be capped during the move and attack. It still is about dexterity, but gymnasts can run and perform amazing feats with their momentum. What would be the difference if you actually trained to apply your skills during combat? Would not this perk be similar to the "run and hit" advantage? And then, what happens if you have perfect balance? (While it does not say anything regarding the move & attack penalties, it does say you have "perfect balance" and it even provides bonuses to acrobatics). After all, move and attack does not says anything explicit about doing acrobatics instead of an attack.

Finally, can you have DWA acrobatics and sword? There is another perk that allows you to deal acrobatic kicks, but that's something else.

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Old 09-27-2018, 02:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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Is it possible to declare one of your blows during DWA as a feint, and provide the other strike during DWA with its benefits?

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I didn't think so, but looking at GURPS Martial Arts:

"Even in a realistic game, it’s possible to use one blade to Beat (pp. 100-101) and the other to strike a blow as part of a Dual-Weapon Attack." is part of the Furusiyya style (pp. 159-160).

Nito Ryu (p. 174): "When armed with two swords, they favor Dual-Weapon Attack – often using one blade to feint (or to Beat; see pp. 100-101) and the other to attack."

So I think the answer is 'yeah, you can sub in a Feint or Beat for an attack in the DWA.'

If you used Setup Attacks ("Delayed Gratification," Pyr #3/52) then having one of the two be a setup attack and pass the bonus to the other attack . . . well, *that* would be interesting, and be a nice way to reward having Shield and Weapon skill both be high.
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

Would the -1 to active defenses against DWA give -1 to the person rolling the quick contest to resist your feint? Since the attacks happen simultaneously, I guess the first attack doesn't benefit from your feint though, it's to set up the next turn's?
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Old 09-27-2018, 08:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

The way I interpret it is that one of the attacks is replaced by a feint, taking all the penalties for being part of a DWA. You'd choose whether it's the one you resolve first or second. If you resolve it first, it affects the second part of the DWA, which also benefits from the -1 to active defences from the DWA. If it's second, any benefit applies to your attack on your next turn. Note that, per MA127, there's little point feinting during a move-and-attack.
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

If shields don't suffer the skill cap or penalty why not just feint with shield?
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:20 PM   #27
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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If shields don't suffer the skill cap or penalty why not just feint with shield?
Shield Rushes don't suffer the penalty and cap, being a slam. A standard shield bash does, as far as I'm aware, and that's what you're feinting (I don't think you can feint a slam).
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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I believe acrobatics itself is not an attack.
The Feint is an attack. I don't care what skill you are using, it's still an attack.
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The way I interpret it is that one of the attacks is replaced by a feint, taking all the penalties for being part of a DWA. You'd choose whether it's the one you resolve first or second. If you resolve it first, it affects the second part of the DWA, which also benefits from the -1 to active defences from the DWA. If it's second, any benefit applies to your attack on your next turn. Note that, per MA127, there's little point feinting during a move-and-attack.
I agree and it is a powerful tactic. I think it especially makes sense for a DWA beat/attack

So as an added wrinkle I'd probable rule that if you were choosing to resolve the feint first and the target actually wins the Feint QC even with the extra -1 then they don't then suffer the -1 to defend against the 2nd half of the dual weapon attack (they spotted the first half wasn't a true attack quickly enough)

But I wouldn't do this if it was beat rather than a normal feint, since with a successful defence against a beat you either had your wepoan engaged but you resisted or you've moved it out of the way.




Thinking about DWA is there such a thing as a Triple Weapon attack, or Quadruple weapon attack for multiple arm builds? (such thing don't come up in my games) but I wondered if it had ever been discussed?
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: Resolving move and attack on DWA & Feints

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I believe acrobatics itself is not an attack. That's why I believe an acrobatic feint should not be capped during the move and attack.
The point of the Perk is simply a skill substitution. Instead of using your weapon skill to Feint, you use Acrobatics (or Sex Appeal or Dancing whatever the character's special Feinting schtick may be). It's not an entire new rules subsystem, with no reason to think all sort of rules other than "you use your weapon skill to Feint" change.

If you also want to ignore the Move and Attack cap, then try to talk the GM into allowing that as a Rules Exemption Perk in addition to Acrobatic Feints. The M&A cap isn't an optional rule, so that's bending the Rules Exemption description a bit. But it is pretty narrowly focused ("ignore the M&A cap for Acrobatic Feints"), since it doesn't cover anything but a Feint or your other weapon attacks.
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