Quick questions on cloaks

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If you grapple with a cloak, it works like a grapple. (B370, or MA "Armed Grapple", or TG, depending on which rules you're using.) The biggest benefit here is going to be the -4 DX the target gets for being grappled. You also get range 1 (grappling normally requires human grapplers to be at range C). You might want to try a takedown. If you're really strong, you might be able to use the dragging rules (B371). Think of it like a whip or lasso.

I remember a cloak-and-dagger campaign from long ago in which a PC with a smallsword faced an opponent with a rapier. The latter had Reach 2, and kept stepping back so as to maintain his Reach advantage. The PC came to Reach 1 and used the cloak to grapple, he succeeded notwithstanding the penalty for moving and attacking (one step would not have been enough), and by grappling the enemy with the cloak he reduced his mobility. On top of that, if he had grappled into close combat, using the smallsword's tip would have become nigh impossible; but by keeping the foe grappled at Reach 1, he could then thrust at him.

Note this was with GURPS 3e... I don't guarantee this works exactly like that now...

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Michele

a PC with a smallsword faced an opponent with a rapier

Clever.

One of the reasons I always liked GURPS was that tactics matter, and there are benefits and drawbacks to using different types of weapons. While not perfect, it's less susceptible than, say, D&D (especially AD&D 1e) on having to choose the obviously superior weapon, dominant in the game theoretic sense -- or just choose to suck, of course. There's more room for character individuality and color when everything doesn't just boil down to how much DPS you do.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Clever.

One of the reasons I always liked GURPS was that tactics matter, and there are benefits and drawbacks to using different types of weapons. While not perfect, it's less susceptible than, say, D&D (especially AD&D 1e) on having to choose the obviously superior weapon, dominant in the game theoretic sense -- or just choose to suck, of course. There's more room for character individuality and color when everything doesn't just boil down to how much DPS you do.

Yes... I am not well informed of how these things work in many other games, and admittedly the PC belonged to a player who was much more into GURPS tactical combat and fencing than me. But I do remember the event exactly because it looked like something a flashy (but reasonably realistic) fencer might do.

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Culture20

What if you use it like Bat-Man (and Dracula), hiding your form and body positioning? Does that count as light cover?

That's essentially what bullfighters do, but a sentient opponent might not fall for it so easy. I would say at the least it would require an impressive roll.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

That's essentially what bullfighters do, but a sentient opponent might not fall for it so easy. I would say at the least it would require an impressive roll.

It's a Feint using your Cloak skill.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by FeiLin

Oh, I was way off! Didn't know that was a common enough phenomenon to deserve lack of explicit mention of how it was used. Couldn't find any mention of wrapping it around the arm, so naturally assumed it was on the back.

I am surprised that this isn't explicit in the Basic Set. DFRPG provides a bit more detail in its description of the Cloak skill:

Originally Posted by Adventurers, p. 74

To use a garment this way, you must take it off and hold it in your hand. This requires a number of Ready maneuvers equal to its Defense Bonus. However, either hand will do – there’s no “off” hand when using a cloak.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Dalin

I am surprised that this isn't explicit in the Basic Set. DFRPG provides a bit more detail in its description of the Cloak skill:

To be fair, DFRPG has about 20 years of extra experience in its writing.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by FeiLin

Kool, thanks!
Oh, I was way off! Didn't know that was a common enough phenomenon to deserve lack of explicit mention of how it was used. Couldn't find any mention of wrapping it around the arm, so naturally assumed it was on the back.

It's a civilian fencing tactic, using something you are likely to have in ordinary life as a weapon. There are plenty of martial arts that do stuff like this. Admittedly a lot of them seem to have stylized this sort of thing to dances with fabric streamers rather than anything practical. Not that the capes in bullfighting that might have some actual descent connections are any less of a performance art.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by malloyd

It's a civilian fencing tactic, using something you are likely to have in ordinary life as a weapon. There are plenty of martial arts that do stuff like this. Admittedly a lot of them seem to have stylized this sort of thing to dances with fabric streamers rather than anything practical. Not that the capes in bullfighting that might have some actual descent connections are any less of a performance art.

Never thought of those styles with scarves as feinting but that makes sense for how I see them used. Now I need to build a style :)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

If you want to be like Batman or Zorro, you might use the "Hands-Free" perk from Power Ups 2. The perk lists that combat skills are allowed, but would be considered cinematic. Having the hands-free cloak perk should allow you to get the passive DB bonus of the cloak to your other defenses, GM permitting, in the same way that simply holding a shield can give a DB bonus to dodges and parries.

Page 16 mentions "In most cases, this means a feat that requires a hand but not fine manipulation" and we're given Driving as an example.

Page 5 has the combat versions of Akimbo and Cotton Stomach. Akimbo allows "open doors, reload, and so forth" with "so forth" presumably meaning the pg 16 guidelines (hand but not fine manipulation).

Cotton Stomach allows parries (which I know doesn't require fine manipulators, since someone with One Hand can parry using the forearm) but it also allows follow-up techniques like Arm Lock where things begin to get a little blurry...

Technical Grappling 29 says "adds the equivalent of a grasping hand to your torso" which sounds even more open-ended... I don't know if that means you can now make grappling attacks with it (or choke necks with your torso?) or if the ST is only mentioned for doing something like a Grabbing Parry.

I would think that even though it has ST like a hand (x0.5) and not ST like a paw (0.3) that it would still probably work like a paw and only be able to do paw-like things... like you can't wield weapons using your torso like hands, but you should probably be able to choke someone like if you had your leg around their neck.

I remember there was rules for wielding small weapons while holding a shield. "Shield-Hand Weapons" on page 12 of Low-Tech Companions 2 (Weapons and Warriors). This can be done with all weapons, but a held weapon can only be ready if using a small (DB1) shield/buckler.

Light cloaks give DB1 like small shields so it doesn't seem like it'd be unbalanced to allow this too, so long as it also suffered the -2 to both skills. If it's not allowed by normal rules then a perk to allow an exception seems right. In fact, I think RAW using "Technique Adaptation" would allow it, if you wielded Cloaks using the Shield skill?

Shield (Guide) might be even closer, since blocking with a shield attached via a neck strap sounds like an even closer approach to using cloak simultaneously worn around your neck.

Might be interesting to allow a technique to reduce the penalty to -1 for 1 or 2 points (not completely though, it should always be harder, like with Targeted Attacks). Not sure how specific that would need to be to individual skills though.

To have enough loose cape/cloak to use like in what Anaraxes linked at http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/di_grasseCloak.htm it would probably have to be super-long though, which I think capes like Batman are, not sure about Zorro, he seems to have a shorter cape than Batman.

What I think the Akimbo / Hands Free evaluation would boil down to is: do you need Fine Manipulators to use cloaks?

One Hand mentions "possibly strap something to it (e.g., a shield)." and wrapping a cloak around your handless forearm-stump seems as feasible as strapping a shield to it, although you'd probably need at least one fine manipulator (your other hand) to strap/wrap to your stump in the first place, unless you had an ally to help.

In that sense, something like Akimbo/Cotton Stomach could be perceived as using a cloak wrapped around your torso instead of wrapped around your arm... or for that matter, with Shield to cover stuff like keeping a shield worn on your torso and moving your torso to make "Block" defences. I remember attacks sometimes bounced off Link's shield when he wore it on his back without wielding it, though that might just be passive Cover rules in action.