What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by martinl

Isn't there an impulse buy to blow a CP to win a contest like this? If you want epic resistance in GURPS that would work fine too.

Buying Successes, which is in Campaigns.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Set

I see your point, and it makes sense. Do you think, then, that everyone who is trained should have Magic Resistance like they have Armor?

I don't see why not. The only good argument against Magic Resistance (MR) is that it'll be hard to buff and heal those who have it . . . but as we've established that magic-workers won't be all that common, this isn't much of downside. If typical forces have one magic-user per 1,000 or even per 20 mooks, mooks aren't getting buffed or healed by spells anyway. They'll survive longer with MR to help them resist hostile Area spells than they will shouting "Cleric!"

Whether MR should be common is a world-building decision. My own view is that it's probably something like Fit: With enough training, you can gain it. I'd say Fit sets a fair level of point expenditure, too – I see nothing wrong with MR 2-3 being trainable, and that's enough to make a difference, especially against Area spells.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Not the 'mooks'. What happens is the mook guardsmen see a guy wearing a dress and mumbling to himself and like soldiers in WWII who hear incoming artillery fire, they all collectively crap themselves and dive for cover.

Something a lot of people forget is just how useful running for cover really is in the default GURPS magic system. With Regular spells, a wizard who can't see or touch you has -5 to cast on you, and a wizard who's far away has -1/hex to cast on you. Area spells are more forgiving, but they still can't be cast terribly far away, and they cost a ton if they have to span a huge area. Simple physical measures like getting out of sight and/or running to increase distance when you see a caster, and spreading out to limit the harm of Area spells, are effective . . . and surprisingly similar to how not to get killed by artillery.

Another rule often overlooked is just how costly Regular spells are on things with SM +1 or more. If you plan to one-shot a large dragon (SM +5) with magic, you had better have the energy points to pay six times the usual cost – and possibly more than once, if the dragon resists (which seems likely with HT 15, Will 16, and the ability to roast you from 10 yards overhead where you're at -10 to cast on it).

A huge amount of the criticisms I've seen of the magic system appear to be blind to these built-in balancing factors.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I don't see why not. The only good argument against Magic Resistance (MR) is that it'll be hard to buff and heal those who have it . . . but as we've established that magic-workers won't be all that common, this isn't much of downside.

I'd also note that many of the "save or [have something unpleasant happen]" spells are resisted by HT or Will. Big, tough enemies without specifically magical defenses should have good HT anyway, and a few points of Will make a decent defense against many of the remaining spells as well as manipulation by social characters, all without incurring the problems of MR. Going with that "training to deal with artillery" metaphor, this could represent training by wise old veterans about not being fooled by images and illusions and how to deal with fear on the battlefield.

[mr beer]

My players, who have been romping through hordes of giants pretty convincingly, have just encountered a few drow, including some clerics.

It was surprisingly difficult to use 'save or die' magic to take out the PCs.

The Terror spell which I had had high hopes for was fairly useless; they made good progress with Darkness (drow have Dark Vision) and then using Strike Blind attacks against the players who huddled around the glowing Celestial Paladin. Then the party wizard roused himself out of his trademark torporous state and used Dispel Magic to wreck the area and that was that.

I do think when I hit them with some Mind Control drow wizards they're going to have major problems though.

[Set]

Hey guys, I went missing because I'm a tutor and it's tests' week, so I've been working like a mook guard. Oh well...

Anyways, some of the replies were saying the same things.

Still, my main problem stays: If I give everyone MR and other defenses, they'll be defending better against every spell, not just the ones I think are problematic.

Removing them isn't really a solution, it's more like running away from the problem. I like their flavor. They're a staple. Sword 'n' Sorcery must have petrified galleries. I just don't like the way they're handled here.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Get DFRPG. Play it straight out the box in a West Marches (sandbox hexcrawl*) or Felltower (sandbox megadungeon*) style game for about 20-50 sessions. The Players don't get invested in their paper mans, you don't get invested in your tableau battles or BBEGs. This gives you time to discover if this is really actually a problem at the table or just a white board issue (most of us are trying to tell you that, in our experiences, this is not an actual problem at the table, just on the infinite plane of theorycrafting).

Meanwhile pick up some of the other magic systems, like DF 19: Incantation Magic, Powers: Divine Favor, Thaumatology: Sorcery, or Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic and see if any of these magic systems work better for you.

They probably will** as they inherently do not have save-or-die unless you the GM allow those spells to be built.



* Why one is called a "hexcrawl" and the other a "megadungeon" is lost on me, they're the same style game just one is 'outdoors' and the other 'indoors'.

** Or not, as these systems inherently require more work for the GM. I'm personally really partial to RPM and Divine Favor... but Incantations/Effect Shaping is gathering some love from me recently.

DFRPG looks cool, but there are two main problems: It isn't out yet, and I already have the normal DF supplements and core books ): Feels a bit like buying the same thing twice.

About the suggestion on the game styles: I LOVED THEM. Especially West Marches. I'll most likely be running that after I've organized my rules and presented GURPS to the people I play with - I have tons of friends who I like to play RPG with. This is like the Holy Grail. Thank you very much for showing me this.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I don't see why not. The only good argument against Magic Resistance (MR) is that it'll be hard to buff and heal those who have it . . . but as we've established that magic-workers won't be all that common, this isn't much of downside. If typical forces have one magic-user per 1,000 or even per 20 mooks, mooks aren't getting buffed or healed by spells anyway. They'll survive longer with MR to help them resist hostile Area spells than they will shouting "Cleric!"

Whether MR should be common is a world-building decision. My own view is that it's probably something like Fit: With enough training, you can gain it. I'd say Fit sets a fair level of point expenditure, too – I see nothing wrong with MR 2-3 being trainable, and that's enough to make a difference, especially against Area spells.

Really good insight on world-building. Thanks. About the rest of the reply: I see your point, truly. The problem I have with that way of handling this is what I've stated before: I don't want to hit all the spells in the same way; I want to hit save-or-die only.



So, thanks everyone for the suggestions. I've considered them, re-read the books, ran a few more simulations and I get your point, I really do - I just don't agree. I have Stubbornness (9) and I rolled 12.

What I'm going to do: I'll test and tweak the "fixes" I'm proposing, then I'll play them on a couple of one-shots.
Then, I'll tweak the other aspects of Standard Magic I dislike: Wizards being way too generalists (I'll try to approach this in a few ways), and pre-requisites. Then I'll test and tweak.
Then I'll apply the save-or-die thingies to other magic systems (since I'll probably be running several on the same game to address different magic workers: Divine Favour for Clerics/Holy Warriors, Sorcery for Sorcerors, Standard Magic for Wizards, some kind of tweaked Symbol Magic for "Rune Casters", and maybe Incantation.) - try to balance them all and test and tweak quite a few times.

I'm thinking it will take a few months to get ready.

When I'm done, I'll post my experiences with those tweaks and how all those magic systems worked together with them in actual play and try to organize them in a simple "guide" for those who'd wish to try it.

I won't be gone, tho. Still be around here discussing other GURPSy matters.

[D10]

Originally Posted by Set

My problem is mainly with spells that basically win fights, such as Panic.
4 energy cost. Target fails: 60 turns unable to do anything but run or defend itself.

But maybe there are more overpowered spells, I've seen many complaints.

Bravery makes a whole group immune for hours on end, ill admit tho, mind is my 1st school of choice for combat.

Originally Posted by Set

It isn't really the same, as the Feint needs a good roll to be actually good, and even then, he would have to make it a Deceptive Attack otherwise the enemy would have a very good chance of defending him/herself. Also, a Fighter needs to be way stronger and more specialized than the Wizard to pull this off.

Also, it isn't really guaranteed to be a fight-ender, whereas the magic effects last like 1 minute, which is 60 turns.

Altho there are very powerfull magic spells, such as panic, mass daze, etc. You can always roll badly, just like in the case of feint, allowing for easy resistance. Rule of 16 and all.

Unfazeable, fearlessnes, resistance to mental effects, buying up willpower, all contribute to a healthy life for your NPCs. Besides, panic is not cheap.

Originally Posted by Set

Really good insight on world-building. Thanks. About the rest of the reply: I see your point, truly. The problem I have with that way of handling this is what I've stated before: I don't want to hit all the spells in the same way; I want to hit save-or-die only.

Under the right circunstances, mundane spells can be deadly and deadly spells can be useless. Imho its more intuitive, to achive your goals, to give the PCs and NPCs some sort of extra life like effect, where after suffering a 'save or die' spell such as panic, merely wastes their daily charge of amazingness.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Set

Still, my main problem stays: If I give everyone MR and other defenses, they'll be defending better against every spell, not just the ones I think are problematic.

Well, you don't give it to everyone. Just the guys who need it... but I think you are better served modifying each SoD into an SoS (save-or-die to save-or-suck).

Say Flesh to Stone slowly turns them into stone in stages. Each stage could have it's own save, maybe progressively worsening. Stage 1 gives them a DX penalty say 1/5 of their DX (rounddown) and lasts 5 seconds; Stage 2 a further DX pen (another 1/5), gives DR 2, lasts 5 seconds, Stage 3 gives the final DX pen (up to 3/5 DX pen now), Slowed (one level of Decreased Time Rate), and a Perception penalty of... eh.. -4 (?)*; Stage 4 is just five more seconds of all that suck and a last Resistance cause if the enemy ain't dead by now they will be by Stage 5. Stage 5, enemy is a statue and will remain so indefinitely until the spell is broken.

Really good insight on world-building. Thanks. About the rest of the reply: I see your point, truly. The problem I have with that way of handling this is what I've stated before: I don't want to hit all the spells in the same way; I want to hit save-or-die only.

They could just get limited Resistance items. Headband of Clear thoughts to help resist Mind Control, Amulet of Physical Constancy to help resist body control spells, lesser trinkets that target more specific ills like Purity Seal of Bravery (bonuses to Fearlessness), etc.

Originally Posted by D10

Imho its more intuitive, to achive your goals, to give the PCs and NPCs some sort of extra life like effect, where after suffering a 'save or die' spell such as panic, merely wastes their daily charge of amazingness.

What I did once was to have the Big Bad roll out all decked to the gills in the iconography of his vile demon-god. Small holy symbols on his armor, his chest just decked out in 'purity seals', totes Warhammered out. As the Theurgist and Warlock in the party hit him with [save-or-die] spells he laughed them off!

But after a few rounds of this the Theurge noticed those symbols were blackening, some like the "purity seals" were catching fire and falling off! So he shouted to his team to try to knock off those remaining symbols (the warriors were doing jack squat for damage and they knew it) and sure enough, every seal or icon removed weakened the Chaos Knight until a final save-or-die spell managed to get through and end it (though honestly by then the warriors were landing telling blows and the Chaos Knight was reeling and about to flee).

The icons each granted him some "permanent" Unholy boost (+5 to ST, +5 HP, +5 DX, etc), while each 'impurity seal' was a Bless. He had like 10 seals I think. Maybe 15. I didn't go "overboard', but it was meant to be a "slog' of a fight that the Chaos Knight was to gradually grow "weaker" as he lost seals and the PCs managed to bust icons off his armor.

I think he lasted 10 rounds before it was obvious he was going down and he started to retreat. And then got hit with a Flesh to Ice from the Warlock and it was over.

[hal]

This is being said by a gamer who has purchased SOME of the DF products, not the boxed set, and has never really wanted to run a DF style campaign due to the high point values of the characters...

My experience with GURPS MAGIC over the years since 1990 onwards points to the following observations.

Any accusation of "lack of balance" has to be taken into account with the original environment that GURPS MAGIC (first edition) came into being for. GURPS 3e had characters built on 100 points, not 400. Energy for spell casting was not an abundant resource. Magery was limited to level 3, which consequently kept most skill levels down to manageable levels. Why? You either specialized in a very few spells and put a lot of character points into the few spells you had, or you put a lot of points into a lot of spells, and never really got a high skill level in the spells.

Dungeon Fantasy changed that to some extent. Characters are now built on 400+ points. Magery can now exceed level 3 - which in turn, blows through the built in limiting factor of "do I spend points on Magery 3 and lose 10 spells, or do I spend points on magery 2 and forego the pleasure of spells that require magery 3, and get an extra 10 spells I'd otherwise not be able to get".

Then there is the issue of spell casting range penalties etc. A mage casting a spell against a target 5 hexes away, in a low mana region, is at -10 to spell casting skill. If he had a skill 15, that is a major blow to his ability to cast spells. In a normal spell environment, skill 15 less 5 for range, drops the skill to 10. If you're casting a spell that can be resisted (ie has a saving throw), skill 10 versus say, a HT 12, is difficult to successfully cast in a single attempt. Spells that take 3 seconds to cast, grant the other non-spell casting target some three free actions before the spell even has a chance of being completed, let alone being cast, let alone overwhelming the resistance of the defender.

So, if the issue is of play balance? Fine. I think that Mages using GURPS MAGIC as written, have a tough enough time as it is. Magic has NEVER overwhelmed a campaign I've ever GM'd for one simple reason...

No matter how big the Player Characters get as fish, there is always going to be a bigger fish.

Case in point? Set in Sanctuary (yes, the BOOK series Sanctuary), one player who ran a high point mage, assassinated both Molin Torchholder and Prince Kitty Kat (Kadathis?) in a single attack. The Wizard's guild, fearful of the Emperor's wrath, undertook a plan to hunt down the PC mage, and take him down. They created a "Drain Mana" pebble, that when cast forcefully at the floor, would trigger the spell "Drain Mana" for a 1/4 mile radius. The player character mage, no longer able to count on his magic items, his spell casting ability, and had to move to get out of range of the no mana region - found himself unable to defend against the squad of crossbowmen who gunned him down like a dog in the streets. The player was TORQUED off that he lost his character, but I told him simply "if you were the leader of the Mage's guild, what would you have done to preserve the right to cast spells?" He had to admit, that it wasn't as over the top as it felt, and then took pride that it took a concentrated Guild effort to nail his hide to the wall.

In the end? Each GM runs his or her game as they see fit, but to say that the "save or die" spells ruin the game for you, suggests to me that until you've watched your players play within the environment as written, and watch them struggle with both the successes and failures - you won't really know how it will play out.

final point and I'll bring this to a close...

My wife started playing GURPS - having never experienced a Role playing game up to that point. I told her "if you can picture doing it, GURPS can handle it". She, having experienced fencing both foil and saber up to that point in time, could imagine a LOT thankyouverymuch. She never cracked open a book to learn the game system until GURPS MAGIC, where she got bit by the "Mage bug" - the creativity required to play the mage well as it were. Then she was introduced to D&D for the first time (the white binders version, 2nd edition I think). She HATED it because once she reached third level, none of the zero level fighters or first level fighters could defeat her character. To this day, she has never forgotten her Fighter with a skill 26 in Broadsword (VERY special build based on Red Sonja). She went up against a skill 18 fighter, and being cocky, gave him first attack rights. He went against her sword arm for his attack, and got a crit success. She had a temporarily crippled arm, and was INCENSED at the lucky hit. So, she challenged him to an immediate rematch, using her off hand (skill now reduced to 22). She attacked, he parried, and counter attacked. She rolled a crit failure on her defense roll, and because, like the first time, he went for the weapon arm, ended up crippling temporarily, her left arm as well. Two one second duels, both decided against her - from an inferior foe.

THAT is what she loved about GURPS.

As others have been saying, give the original rules a run, and use it without modification. See how it plays rather than how it "tests". Give your players the deciding vote rather than your own view of the system. Sometimes, things develop far sweeter than you might otherwise imagine. And if they complain? Ask yourself "how often did they crow when the dice went their way, and if they complain now, is it because the dice went against them, or is it because the system is truly unfair or unbalanced.

Don't take this as a dig against you, or anything of that nature, take it for what it is worth. Give the system a chance to work as written. Take notes, then make changes to the system after running it a few times. This is advice from someone who is known to create house rules without fear, but it is also from someone who has used GURPS since 1986. Ye Gads, do I feel old all of the sudden. :(

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by hal

GURPS 3e had characters built on 100 points, not 400.

Quick aside: 250, not 400. 400 points is Monster Hunters. And of course, with the changes to various things, the rough equivalent of 100 points in 4e is 150 points, so it's hard to draw a direct comparison.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Quick aside: 250, not 400. 400 points is Monster Hunters. And of course, with the changes to various things, the rough equivalent of 100 points in 4e is 150 points, so it's hard to draw a direct comparison.

Thanks - was going by memory. But even so, what could I do with 100 extra points using my normal build techniques for characters usually built upon 150?

At 10 points per level for Magery, that's an extra +10 to spell casting skill right up front. Or, +5 to IQ and/or DX. That's 100 spells beyond what I would normally take for a versatile mage. Or, that's another 33 energy reserves that can be had up front (assuming of course the GM allowed that!). With the new rules for higher magery levels, that means too, that I can build a 13 die fireball with sufficiently available energy (as opposed to the original limits imposed on fireball spells where Magery 3 was the max).

So, DFRPG - if it makes people happy, cool. If GMs buy the game and run it with an eye towards recreating D&D's early years, Go for it. Raiding old GURPS rules for DFRPG may have a disconnect for those who only know DGRPG.