09-18-2017, 02:21 AM | #41 | |||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Totally not a D&D style magic system, but then... eh. Quote:
But this is as it should be for an Apprentice facing foes that are twice his point total. Quote:
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* But only one hits due to Deflect Missiles. Skill 22, -2 Dual Weapon Attack, main body hits, Scout can be up to 10 yards away (-4) and still have an excellent chance (Scout can even get risky and try for Leading the Target/Deceptive Strike). Wizard Deflects one and must Dodge the other at 9 (or worse if Deceptive). Likelihood is Wizard takes one to the chest. But you keep saying Archer... so sure. Let's look at the hench version: Archer can have a 17 bow skill, so a 20 after Acc. No reason to go for the eyes, it's a Wizard who is a 'squishy clothy' so just put two into his torso. Like the above, Wizard probably takes one to the torso. (Unless the Wizard goes first, they have the same Base Speed, so it's fifty-fifty). Quote:
So if the Apprentice starts far enough away, he can't affect the Knight, but if close enough he dies before he can cast. Quote:
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I think this is the heart of the problem. You want a singular individual* who is the same weight class as one of his foes to be able to stand up to and challenge a group of them without heaping him with one-shot protections. He won't. He'll go down like a punk. Even if you shore up his weaknesses, he's one foe versus 4, he won't stand. * Two thugs? One of the party will take them out instantly. Okay, it won't be the Thief, they suck at combat. |
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09-18-2017, 02:36 AM | #42 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
Is it? I haven't read it yet (not exactly, i skimmed it). Somehow I got (slightly) the wrong impression. Interesting.
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AS a GM... eh... I run Action so having the BBEG go out in a puff of smoke as the mage unleashes with all their mojo can be fun. Quote:
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09-18-2017, 02:39 AM | #43 | |
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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I was trying to compare what an Archer can do to a Knight and what an Apprentice can do to a Knight. I included the Wizard to the mix to show that it isn't really a thing of "Apprentice counters mundane heavy armor guys". It's 14 because I was taking the approach of taking Magery 3 and saving in Advantages for spells. What I want to say is: Against basically any "boss fight" using an adventurer-level guy as the boss (for henchmen) (with enough mobs to equalize the CER, just for the sake of testing), the Apprentice still have a decent chance of neutralizing the big guy with a single spell.
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09-18-2017, 02:45 AM | #44 | |||
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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I've seen the debate going around on some older threads. What do you think of my suggestions on page 3? Could work with some adjustments? EDIT: I've edited it into OP, so it can have better visibility and net me more suggestions.
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09-18-2017, 06:28 AM | #45 |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
As others have also implied, I think you ought to try playing a campaign with the magic system more or less as written. It certainly does well with tweaks and spell rewrites, but you may find that the save-or-die spells don't cause the kind of anticlimaxes you're afraid of. I have played many campaigns using Magic, and I believe resisted affliction type spells actually do a great job of adding suspense.
PCs tend to buy up high resistance (since no one wants to be mind controlled, turned to stone, etc.) and Luck, and NPCs will vary depending on what the GM thinks will be fun. For players, it can be quite satisfying to cast Entombment successfully, for example, and it doesn't feel like an "easy win" since it costs a lot of energy and often the enemies will successfully resist. On the defending side, having to use Luck, Bless and other resources (such as defensive magic) to defend against save-or-die spells can add complexity to tactical thinking and resource management. It's very rarely the all-or-nothing situation you seem to be so afraid of! Important enemies will have Luck (and possibly Bless), supernatural immunities, their own casters that can negate bad spell effects with Dispel Magic, Ward, Stone to Flesh, Remove Curse, etc. And if you don't want the PCs to have Panic cast on them, don't have the enemies cast it! Spells like Daze or Stun can be a great hindrance without instantly removing a character from the fight. My own tweaks to Magic might help you a little, since I've made magical countermeasures easier and weakened some problems spells (including Panic) a bit. Feel free to take a look: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0ulwtzujq...%20DF.pdf?dl=0 |
09-18-2017, 07:11 AM | #46 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
There's a point that hasn't been raised yet: the difference between mooks and bosses. Out of game, bosses are meant to be a tough fight, mooks are not. In game, bosses are capable of being a serious threat; either through skill and preparation, luck and aptitude, divine (profane?) blessing, or by cheating.
Mooks, like the theoretical garrison of troops who just barely lose to a party of four heroes, probably aren't going to have much in the way of anti-magic preparations. A few of them may have innate Magic Resistance, and some of the officers may have bought up a bit of Will, but otherwise not that much. The Boss, on the other hand, will likely prepare specifically to deal with mages as well as mundane foes. Perhaps he keeps golems or undead around to counter mind affecting spells, has gotten himself blessed, is unusually Lucky, or has been gifted with a cursed moly amulet by his dark gods (got to love the Legion of the Damned perk). Most likely, he's had time to realize that delvers are on their way, and perhaps even had time to study their methods. After all, if the delvers are fond of the Panic spell, that's a lot of survivors who've seen them in action and fled. And if and when the delvers stop to rest to recover all that spent FP, they can get a bit of a head start for planning or reporting back. If the Boss doesn't think he can counter the delvers' tactics, he's not going to stick around to lose to them. He's gonna run, find some way to beat them, and then face them on his own terms. A boss who's a pushover against the players isn't a Boss; he's a Mook with a backstory. Some examples from my own campaign:
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09-18-2017, 08:11 AM | #47 |
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
And that's because fiction with high fantasy has those. And they're usually not "save or die", but instead just "die". The games are being nice by allowing a margin of success.
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09-18-2017, 09:17 AM | #48 | |
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Also, your title says "DF" in it. In DF, magic is as common as swords. Peasants and guards probably shouldn't be walking around with Moly Amulets. But you should probably have Bosses (not the common rabble) have defenses against magic, or contingencies if magic shows up. If you want epic battles with the BBEG, ummm, make them epic. A Knight with two thugs isn't epic. A Knight, who prays the evil god Set, granting himself an armored intelligent bear companion that he can ride and two thugs with pikes makes for an epic battle. In your OP example adding a bear companion does a few things to your encounter: the knight getting taken out isn't a problem because, the 1) wizard gets to feels cool and 2) you still get the metal encased bear to fight the party, ensuring a grand melee. Parting comment: If you hate save or die spells, instead of ditching the base magic system, remove save or die spells. Simple, elegant, and removes the thing you really don't like. |
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09-18-2017, 10:40 AM | #49 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Cockeysville, MD
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
If you don't like "save vs die" spells, then don't allow them! Problem solved.
But I have to say I've never seen "save vs die" spells become much of a problem. Things like distance modifiers (that reduce skill and force the wizard to get into uncomfortable close to the melee), (2) the Rule of 16 (again lowering skill and potential Margin of Success), and (3) not knowing the enemy stats, means that there is always a chance of failure. This means that a net outcome of "nothing happens" is a risk that wizards have to make, and I've found that most will take a "safer" approach and cast area spells vs something that is resisted.
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09-18-2017, 10:48 AM | #50 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Few infantry units smaller than battalions have organic artillery. You certainly don't encounter artillery bigger than a small mortar in the hands of units comparable in headcount to fantasy adventuring parties. By comparison to infantry units, artillery units are few in number; by comparison to rifles, artillery weapons are incredibly few in number. However, nobody with the resources to send infantry battalions into battle wants to do so without artillery support. Most of the casualties in modern warfare are attributable to artillery. Consequently, facing artillery is the preoccupation of troops of all kinds. A lot of hours of training for infantry involve learning how to "dig in," largely as a countermeasure against artillery; a lot of hours in the field are spent digging. For a long time (and arguably still), the main purpose of body armor was to limit the deadliness of fragments from explosions, not to stop bullets. In short, huge amounts of training and time and resources for the riflemen who are the backbone of the fighting force are expended on being capable of standing up to the artillery that menaces them. In fantasy, wizards are the artillery. Not always actual artillery in the sense that they can destroy huge numbers of enemies, but they tick off all the other boxes: Small units won't have wizards, who will be few in number by comparison to swords and bows, but nobody with the resources to support troops in the field will willingly go without wizards. Wizards are necessary to win battles and wars, and facing wizards is likely to be the focus of huge amounts of training and time and resources. I think this tends to be overlooked in fantasy gaming. If "special ops" units laden with magic-workers (read: "adventuring parties") exist and can menace high-value targets (boss monsters), successfully raid fortified positions (dungeons), and take on many times their number in ordinary troops (orcs, zombies, whatever), then anybody who wants to be taken seriously – barons, evil overlords, lich-kings, etc. – will plan for these units. Preparing for the PCs isn't a ham-fisted attempt to balance them; it's a logical world-building step in a setting where roving bands of super-well-trained mercenaries with inordinate amounts of magic and first-rate gear make sense. It's actually harder on willing suspension of disbelief if the entire military and security situation of the world looks like medieval Earth.
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