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Old 12-11-2017, 09:33 PM   #171
Boomerang
 
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
I don't have a problem with them (if they fit the campaign, of course). However, I am curious as to whether your own issue with them is the potential "game-breaking-ness" or with the ethics of heroes using those powers, since you see them as suiting archvillains?
It's a mix of both. Mind Control doesn't sit well with me as an appropriate power for heroes unless there is a lot of care taken in how it is used. Mind Reading has the habit of short circuiting my plots.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:09 PM   #172
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

I think that Mind Shield can work as an effective counter to mental powers like Mind Control and Mind Reading, the problem is the degree to which to have such countermeasures. I generally allow characters to purchase Mind Shield as a mundane ability as I think that it would function as a natural defense to mental supernatural abilities. I generally give up to five levels to minor NPCs and up to ten levels to major NPCs, so PCs might be able to control innocents or read the minds of the unaware, but their abilities have limited effectiveness against their enemies.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:29 AM   #173
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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I think that Mind Shield can work as an effective counter to mental powers like Mind Control and Mind Reading, the problem is the degree to which to have such countermeasures. I generally allow characters to purchase Mind Shield as a mundane ability as I think that it would function as a natural defense to mental supernatural abilities. I generally give up to five levels to minor NPCs and up to ten levels to major NPCs, so PCs might be able to control innocents or read the minds of the unaware, but their abilities have limited effectiveness against their enemies.
I'll be honest, I think this is a bad way of doing it.

Do you have mundane abilities that allow people to see invisible? Do you have mundane anti-phase/anti-teleport walls? Can people purchase a nearly undetectable level of mundane DR to mitigate the vast majority of innate attacks? If there are mundane purchases that anyone can buy to counter all abilities and powers, then this is an okay way to do it. If not . . ..

If a player purchases an ability only to discover that the GM has given a super-effective counter to it to almost everyone in the game world there would be a strong argument for the GM lying to them.

If you're worried about your players using their powers against innocents, talk to them about that. Making everyone in the world practically immune (functional Will 15) to Mind Control/Reading is exacerbating the problem, not addressing it.

For the badguys, well, there are some time-honored solutions for dealing with mind readers.

Solution 1, Mooks just don't know enough to be relevant. They don't even get their orders from a person, only a computer or a phone.

Solution 2, Lieutenants are full of misinformation. What super villain tells their Lieutenant their complete plan? Better to fill them with the wrong information so if they're captured they'll send the authorities on a wild goose chase.

Solution 3, Employ an enemy psychic to keep the mind-reader busy.

Solution 4, Send robots after them. Robots filled with explosives.

Solution 5, Seriously, get your own psychic and start throwing waves of innocent people at them, to keep the mind controller busy trying to free them.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:48 PM   #174
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

In actual play rather than armchair discussions, range penalties, the swinginess of Quick Contests, and the effects of lost Contests on repeated attempts – and for Mind Control, the penalties for existing contacts, the need to Concentrate to give commands, and the way certain commands can break control – keep these abilities in hand. The trick is to forbid enhancements that work around such drawbacks. If a PC starts getting out of control with Mind Control and/or Mind Reading, that's usually because the GM isn't enforcing the built-in flaws or is being too generous about allowing workarounds.

Even that's recoverable, though . . . Unless the player paid points for a generous Unusual Background to have gifts the world isn't ready for (if the PC has this, let it work!), enemies will realize the danger and take steps. Sniper rifles generally work better than psychic powers at great distances, many settings with prevalent psi have drugs that help block it, and some hired gun with Neutralize or area-effect Psi Static is always an option. Immunizing every NPC probably isn't the best solution.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:51 PM   #175
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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Do you have mundane abilities that allow people to see invisible? Do you have mundane anti-phase/anti-teleport walls? Can people purchase a nearly undetectable level of mundane DR to mitigate the vast majority of innate attacks? If there are mundane purchases that anyone can buy to counter all abilities and powers, then this is an okay way to do it. If not . . ..
If an ability has "technological countermeasures" as a limitation, I'd expect there to be "mundane" defense that you can purchase or employ to negate it. Of course, that doesn't mean it's going to be readily available to everyone (perhaps it's military restricted tech) or necessarily affordable for most people. Certainly, I'd price it high enough to quite the luxury.

Besides there are some counter measures for some abilities that are readily available. You can often paint or flour an invisible person. You can add armor to help with attacks.


Quote:
Solution 1, Mooks just don't know enough to be relevant. They don't even get their orders from a person, only a computer or a phone.

Solution 2, Lieutenants are full of misinformation. What super villain tells their Lieutenant their complete plan? Better to fill them with the wrong information so if they're captured they'll send the authorities on a wild goose chase.

Solution 3, Employ an enemy psychic to keep the mind-reader busy.

Solution 4, Send robots after them. Robots filled with explosives.

Solution 5, Seriously, get your own psychic and start throwing waves of innocent people at them, to keep the mind controller busy trying to free them.
All good solutions, I've also used these to discourage it from short circuiting many plots:

Solution 6. It's illegal, just like shooting someone with either a gun or an innate attack while they aren't doing anything obviously threatening.

Solution 7. It's inadmissible. PCs can't use anything based on what they discover because it's another form of forcing self incrimination.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:58 PM   #176
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Anti-psi drugs would be a mundane countermeasures note on a power modifier, surely? If you've let them have Mind Reading wild or in a power without mundane countermeasures listed, they'd seem to have a fair expectation of not running into that.

Sniper rifles, of course, are fair play - as is enemies being able to readily grasp what they're dealing with if you don't have an 'I am an outside context problem' UB.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:04 PM   #177
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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Mind Reading has the habit of short circuiting my plots.
A lot of real-world countermeasures against betrayal and interrogation work against mind-reading. Organizations that plot and conspire tend to be compartmentalized, if not broken into cells. Information of any importance is given out on a "need to know" basis. Ordinary foot soldiers know only their orders and maybe who gave them. They don't know the tactical or strategic importance of their orders (though they might truly believe they know, and reading their minds extracts conjecture posing as fact), and they're likely reached through cutouts ("Who gave the orders?" "The guy last night's news said turned up dead.") and dead drops ("Who gave the orders?" "The voice on the phone."). The challenge is finding the right person to question . . . and at that point, mind-reading might be no more useful than a gun pointed at the NPC.

A good principle to follow is to have NPCs know only enough to advance the plot by one scene or at most one act. Then the mission becomes to find the next NPC whose thoughts can move the plot to the next scene or act. If the PCs do the work necessary to find the NPC who knows the information that will wrap up the entire adventure, and get close enough to use mind-reading abilities reliably, they've earned the resolution of that plot. I mean, at that point they could confront, discredit, abduct, interrogate, incapacitate, or kill the NPC anyway, and about all mind-reading does is make that slightly easier – sort of like how high Guns (Rifle) would make sniping the NPC easier, or Patron (Chief of Police) would make getting the NPC arrested easier.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:14 PM   #178
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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Besides there are some counter measures for some abilities that are readily available. You can often paint or flour an invisible person. You can add armor to help with attacks.
However, unlike Mind Shield, those are both obvious and require preparation. Mind Shield is just something you have. Even if it's just "Mind Shield earplugs," you wouldn't be seeing those at a distance and they'd be so non-intrusive, you wouldn't have to go out of your way to be sure you have them with you at all times (like glasses).

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Solution 6. It's illegal, just like shooting someone with either a gun or an innate attack while they aren't doing anything obviously threatening.

Solution 7. It's inadmissible. PCs can't use anything based on what they discover because it's another form of forcing self incrimination.
These both seem to be self-evident, and related.

Most of what Kromm says are ways I handle Mind Control/Reading. It's when players start tacking Reliable +10, Long Range 2 and Cosmic (No Rule of 16) on it that it becomes problematic.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:23 PM   #179
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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It's when players start tacking Reliable +10, Long Range 2 and Cosmic (No Rule of 16) on it that it becomes problematic.
Which is why even Charles Xavier needs Cerebro . . . It allows all those tricks, but it's huge, it can break, it can be sabotaged, etc. The writers were quite aware that just letting the Professor casually read all minds everywhere looking for anything would get old fast.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:30 PM   #180
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Default Re: What will you not allow?

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However, unlike Mind Shield, those are both obvious and require preparation. Mind Shield is just something you have. Even if it's just "Mind Shield earplugs," you wouldn't be seeing those at a distance and they'd be so non-intrusive, you wouldn't have to go out of your way to be sure you have them with you at all times (like glasses).
Depends on the size and availability of both. If the mind shield gear requires a Magneto or Juggernaut style helmet, it's easily as obvious as wearing Kevlar.

If carrying a mind shield box is like carrying a toaster, it's hardly something you'll just have on you at all time any more than a automatic paintball gun to tag invisible people.

It's entirely dependent on how available, concealable, and inexpensive the gear is.

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These both seem to be self-evident, and related.
Somewhat... A lot like having undead, aliens, and robots (which are immune) periodically be the plot problem that session.

In an IST world style world that has the 3 telepath system for testimony, there are limited ways you can legally use your talents and plenty of ways for you to foul up.

Quote:
Most of what Kromm says are ways I handle Mind Control/Reading. It's when players start tacking Reliable +10, Long Range 2 and Cosmic (No Rule of 16) on it that it becomes problematic.
"No rule of 16" is essentially the same as "no defense", which is fairly abusive on any ability. The others are mitigated by not knowing your target or the ramifications of indiscriminately assaulting people around the world.
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