[HT] [AtE] Zip gun cost and TL?

[WaterAndWindSpirit]

Exactly what it sounds like. A Zip gun (High Tech p 92) would likely be a common sight in a post apocalyptic universe. So, for AtE purpose, what's the cost and TL of a zip gun? And are there stats for other similar improvised guns like pipe rifles or improvised shotguns somewhere?

Thanks!

[Gnaskar]

Slam-fire rifles and shotguns are in Pyramid 3/88. They're considered TL5, and cost $10 and $20 respectively, so I'd treat a zip gun similarly (TL5, cost $5).

[Anthony]

They're not likely to be that common AtE though, because ammunition is generally going to be a bigger limitation than guns. There's somewhere near 400 million guns in circulation in the US, and there's nowhere near the 4 trillion rounds of ammo it would take to wear them out.

[Gnaskar]

Wear from bullets is the slowest way to destroy a firearm. Guns are likely to be lost to many other causes, like armories being nuked (which admittedly also removes a lot of ammo), being looted by civilians with no idea how to properly maintain one, being used as club by a zombie, a desperate last ditch parry against a super mutant, being left outside for 40 years, acid rain, etc, etc. Not to mention that anything that doesn't destroy a gun lowers its malf number, increasing the chance of it breaking in the future.

Bullets on the other hand, can be constructed with moderate ease (AtE has simple rules for this, Pyramid 3/88 goes into detail). Such home made ammo is usually going to be black powder propellant with unjacketed lead bullets. Both of which drastically reduce the service lifetime of modern firearms. The result is that a shortage of modern ammo quickly leads to a shortage in modern guns.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Gnaskar

Bullets on the other hand, can be constructed with moderate ease (AtE has simple rules for this, Pyramid 3/88 goes into detail). Such home made ammo is usually going to be black powder propellant with unjacketed lead bullets. Both of which drastically reduce the service lifetime of modern firearms. The result is that a shortage of modern ammo quickly leads to a shortage in modern guns.

Blackpowder and lead bullets will not reduce the life of a modern rifle if it's properly looked after, and if it's not, you've already written it off. Also, making primers is not easy - it will be the primary choke-point in cartridge manufacture AfE, probably followed by making new cases (though they're reusable with care, so that's not going to be too much of an issue for the first few generations post-ruin). On the side of rapid wear of guns AtE is that post-ruin primers are likely to be corrosive, so poor maintenance of one's guns will be quite bad for them if using such ammo.

Environmental destruction of firearms, and loss through neglect will also apply to ammo, so I'm not convinced that it will change the ratio of guns to ammo much.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Gnaskar

Bullets on the other hand, can be constructed with moderate ease

Um... no, really, they can't be. Even black powder production is a fairly major industrial effort unless you happen to be sitting on a convenient saltpeter mine. The odds of a group being able to produce ammunition and not also having the tools to construct guns better than a zip gun is basically nil.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Um... no, really, they can't be.

I think you should finish reading that sentence you quoted... here it goes like this:

"...(AtE has simple rules for this, Pyramid 3/88 goes into detail)".

In other words he's already using AtE as the campaign premise (I mean it's right there in the thread title), a campaign in which bullets are used as money, but high (or even any) quality firearms are a dearly sought commodity.

Thus bullets are as common as pocket change, but tend to be spent with far more bang for their buck... ;)