Should sling be its own talent?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by platimus

Even without any kind of barbed tip, I would still allow the whip to do 1d-1 _fatigue_ to the victim. As stated earlier, people were whipped throughout history as punishment. Even when they didn't die from a _severe_ whipping, they often had to be carried away because they were unable to carry themselves.

Why wouldn't you use the whip on a neck shot that does 1d+2 per turn until the enemy spends a turn removing it so you need to make another to-hit roll?

[Helborn]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

Chiming in late as just returning from vacation, but yes, I think the traditional sling should be an Unusual Weapon talent, alongside Boomerangs and the like. They require very specific skills to master, and can be appalling deadly in the right hands. I remember recently seeing footage of aboriginal hunters going after flamigoes with slings, and killing one from a very far distance.

Slings were the most basic missile weapon because anyone could have one. All it required was a strip of leather from any dead animal (even a cat or dog will do) and a stone - river stones being best. One can even make a sling from grass, though it doesn't last more than a few shots. It is, essentially, a speed and strength multiplier. Yes it takes practice to master but it is not a special skill - just hand-eye coordination. It was the missile weapon of choice for shepherds and herdsmen because they could reach longer distances to attack lurking predators at an insignificant cost. Stones were everywhere and a 12-15" strip of leather - which is all that a sling is, with a wide part to nestle the stone - was easy to get from leftover scraps.

That's why I put it at IQ7 because anyone can do it. Not an Unusual Weapon at all.

There was something called a "Hand Crossbow" which was a last ditch defense in the face (literally) of an attacker - give them the 1-2 or even 1-3 or 1-4 damage and use thrown not missile DX adjustments. (they were notoriously inaccurate over anything more than 5-6').

Now slingSHOTS are a different matter since they do require exotic materials. However, a 19th or 20th century slingshot was a missile weapon with a decent range - up to 20 yds - which, also, did not require specialized or exotic training but a lot of practice. The end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century were rife with stories which contained an episode of an errant slingstone from a slingshot. These, if the exotic materials were to be found, should do the 1-2 damage assigned to the "sling".

Both of these, Hand Crossbow and Slingshot, should be subsumed under the Crossbow skill.

[larsdangly]

I find it hard to imagine someone achieving much with a sling without a significant amount of practice. It might not require IQ above 7, but surely a talent point should be required.

[Shadekeep]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I find it hard to imagine someone achieving much with a sling without a significant amount of practice. It might not require IQ above 7, but surely a talent point should be required.

My thinking as well. I agree that it could easily be an IQ 7 talent, and originally had that in my post as well, except that Thrown Weapon is IQ 8 and the sling seems to have kinship with that. I definitely think it requires a lot of practice to develop skill with, in spite of its simplicity of construction. An atlatl is an exceedingly simple weapon, but I doubt most people are immediately proficient in that either.

[hcobb]

What is the ammo your slingers are using, random stones, precision crafted stones/clay, lead pellets or exploding gems?

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/da...ons-the-sling/

[Helborn]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

My thinking as well. I agree that it could easily be an IQ 7 talent, and originally had that in my post as well, except that Thrown Weapon is IQ 8 and the sling seems to have kinship with that. I definitely think it requires a lot of practice to develop skill with, in spite of its simplicity of construction.

ITL pg 36 "Having a weapon skill lets you throw that weapon if it is one that can be thrown"

Thrown Weapon Talent is only a requirement for the Special Weapons not a requirement to throw things. An IQ 7 1 pt Sling talent would allow you to use a sling without penalty. The Thrown Weapon Talent at IQ 8 would give you a +2DX when you use a Sling. I suggest Thrown Weapons rather than Missile Weapons because the mechanics are of throwing rather than using a bow or crossbow.

If we put Sling under Thrown Weapons then there is no Expert Slinger and Master Slinger. The Thrown Weapons takes care of that. Or, we can add Expert Slinger and Master Slinger and forego Thrown Weapons. I prefer Thrown Weapons because it gives a similar advantage at a similar IQ level with Missile Weapons. (OK IQ 8 vs IQ 9 - but the sling and thrown weapons are simpler than bows)

[Helborn]

Originally Posted by hcobb

What is the ammo your slingers are using, random stones, precision crafted stones/clay, lead pellets or exploding gems?

I would say that TFT does not have that fine grain of precision for any of the above to matter (other than exploding gems). Your strength is going to matter more than the ammo used.

The article you link to (thanks for that) has a certain myopia because the sling was a hunting weapon for the poor. If you needed great training just to hit something a lot of people would have starved to death...... But the article is correct in saying that you needed to start young - most children watching flocks started young.

The Balearic slingers did two things - have greater accuracy and used heavier ammo than the usual shepherd. But they were the creme-de-la-creme of slingers. Give them BOTH Thrown Weapons and Master Slinger!

[Shadekeep]

Originally Posted by Helborn

ITL pg 36 "Having a weapon skill lets you throw that weapon if it is one that can be thrown"

Thrown Weapon Talent is only a requirement for the Special Weapons not a requirement to throw things. An IQ 7 1 pt Sling talent would allow you to use a sling without penalty. The Thrown Weapon Talent at IQ 8 would give you a +2DX when you use a Sling. I suggest Thrown Weapons rather than Missile Weapons because the mechanics are of throwing rather than using a bow or crossbow.

If we put Sling under Thrown Weapons then there is no Expert Slinger and Master Slinger. The Thrown Weapons takes care of that. Or, we can add Expert Slinger and Master Slinger and forego Thrown Weapons. I prefer Thrown Weapons because it gives a similar advantage at a similar IQ level with Missile Weapons. (OK IQ 8 vs IQ 9 - but the sling and thrown weapons are simpler than bows)

That's fine, applying the Thrown Weapon talent to Sling. I didn't mean for it to sound like a prerequisite in my post, rather I was just saying that in the previous discussions it sounded like folks thought slings had some commonality with thrown weapons. Based on that I figured it made sense to make slings an IQ 8 Unusual Weapon. But honestly I much prefer an IQ 7 Sling talent as a type of basic weapon, with Thrown enhancing it as you suggest. Slings are pretty accessible weapons, even if it takes a lot of practice to get good with one.

I think many of the Unusual Weapons belong under IQ 7, as they are primitive weapons that were among some of the first invented by humans. Blowgun, bola, boomerang, cestus, spear thrower (atlatl) and conceivably lasso could all be moved into the IQ 7 tier. But that's a separate argument, I suspect.

[hcobb]

Sling + Thrown Weapons benefits?

• +2 adjDX to hit?
• Ready a stone and fire on same term or is that an adjDX thing?
• Use missile instead of thrown weapon range adjustments?

And when will this thread be moved to the House Rules ghetto?

[larsdangly]

I think a sling should be treated as a missile weapon with respect to range penalties, and thus that its 'upgrade' talent would be Missile Weapons.

Edit: If you poke around on the internet you can figure out that simple slings have maximum ranges exceeding 400 meters (!), and people who have practiced a bit seem to have no trouble hitting targets at ~50 yards. Range penalties in TFT are pretty harsh, overall, but I'd say this earns the sling a 'missile weapon' range treatment