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Old 03-24-2020, 01:18 PM   #31
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Would they also be able to use ST, or only what is effectively mana stat?
I wouldn't let them use their ST (as Fatigue) in addition to their magical ST, although you could experiment with allowing Wizards to actually "wound" themselves if necessary to cast spells when magical ST is exhausted. Maybe they can all do it? Maybe it's a Wizardly school or Talent (Necromancer?).

One of the Sinbad films, I think Eye of the Tiger, had a Wizard who injured himself (permanently) to cast magic. I remember liking that.
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:32 PM   #32
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I wouldn't let them use their ST (as Fatigue) in addition to their magical ST, although you could experiment with allowing Wizards to actually "wound" themselves if necessary to cast spells when magical ST is exhausted. Maybe they can all do it? Maybe it's a Wizardly school or Talent (Necromancer?).

One of the Sinbad films, I think Eye of the Tiger, had a Wizard who injured himself (permanently) to cast magic. I remember liking that.
Whenever I explained what a quasit was, I told people to watch that movie
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:34 PM   #33
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

Sounds workable. Spells actually wounding their caster might do so at double the rate.
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:46 PM   #34
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

I have a house rule that permits spell casters to draw on their visceral ST to cast spells, gaining access to great power but at great cost to themselves: The exchange is 5:1 spell casting ST to true physical damage ST loss, and 20:1 spell casting ST to permanent ST reduction.
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Old 03-25-2020, 03:08 AM   #35
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Wizards have a reservoir of ST for spellcasting based on their ST Attribute but completely independent from other ST functions like wounds or fatigue. So a ST10 Wizard can cast 10 points of spells before their magic power is depleted. But their ST is unaffected for any other purposes. This "Magical Strength" is regained as Fatigue.

This will mean Wizards don't actually have more magical power than currently, they will just be a bit more willing to use it.
My group implemented very much that as far back as the 1980's. We gave the "Magical Strength" stat the name "Mana Valence" or MV for short, implying charged to a certain level of Mana. Hits against MV recouped at the same rate as fatigue.

Our difference is that we populated/initialized the MV charge based on IQ rather than ST. This was to tempt wizards away from becoming Conans. Thus we kept low ST wizards, but as they weren't spending that ST on spells they became less vulnerable anyway.

I'm really tempted to do it as you suggested though, using ST instead of IQ. Then the player has to agonize over which of those two to increase to become a better wizard. I just don't want wizards to become so physically strong they really do usurp the importance of fighters.
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Old 04-05-2020, 02:36 AM   #36
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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I used to play a Wizard a lot back in the day. I alsways felt that TFT Wizards were very flexible but weak in power because of the ST constraint. I had rules that allowed Wizards to store ST in staffs, rings etc, but I'm thinking of something simpler for Legacy:

Wizards have a reservoir of ST for spellcasting based on their ST Attribute but completely independent from other ST functions like wounds or fatigue. So a ST10 Wizard can cast 10 points of spells before their magic power is depleted. But their ST is unaffected for any other purposes. This "Magical Strength" is regained as Fatigue.

This will mean Wizards don't actually have more magical power than currently, they will just be a bit more willing to use it.
Myself and the other two GMs in my old group felt the same way: wizards needed another source to power spells so they'd stop being so shy about trying them. We never had power stones or ST batteries, but came at it in a manner somewhat similar to what you proposed.

We agreed on calling the magical strength reserve the "Mana Valence", but rather than set the initial charge equal to the wizard's ST we used IQ. It also recovered at the same rate as fatigue.

Either route though, IQ or ST is problematic in different ways. Base the charge on IQ, and magical prowess rises extremely fast with the power and spell number/complexity going up in tandem with each IQ increase. But base it on ST, and a wizard becomes a "better" wizard by increasing physical strength instead of more intellectual pursuits -- the wizard can't become a stronger wizard without becoming a stronger fighter, undermining the reason to choose between careers.

After reconsidering this for a couple weeks I've decided my ultimate solution would be to take the big plunge and introduce (gasp) a 4th attribute, a Mana attribute. That would be as apocryphal a change as can be imagined for TFT, but as house rules go it's not as ugly as I first considered.

All attributes would still have a minimum of 8, and 8 free points to distribute as desired for building new characters. The XP costs for increasing attributes wouldn't change, just the cut-off points in the table would all become +8. None of the combat rules or hero builds would have to change one jot to accommodate this. Getting used to thinking in terms of 40 point starting figures instead of 32 would be the main inconvenience. And going forward, all spell costs would become Mana costs instead of ST costs (with the obvious exception of the Death spell). When trading in XP to increase an attribute, a wizard could chose to increase their Mana Valence instead of one of the other attributes, but still at the same XP cost as any attribute.

The Mana stat of the fighters would be just like having an appendix, there but unused. It would just have to be included on record sheets to keep every character on the same scale when buying an attribute upgrade.

It's a radical idea, but I'm growing fond of it.
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Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 04-05-2020 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 04-05-2020, 07:34 AM   #37
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

Wouldn't or couldn't you use Mana as a kind of magical resistance? So it would be useful to fighters as well.

And/Or have fighting Mana-skills, like Brutal Blow, or Last Gasp, which 'draw' on mana, not really spells, but minor abilities?
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Old 04-05-2020, 08:33 PM   #38
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Wouldn't or couldn't you use Mana as a kind of magical resistance? So it would be useful to fighters as well.

And/Or have fighting Mana-skills, like Brutal Blow, or Last Gasp, which 'draw' on mana, not really spells, but minor abilities?
Certainly an idea to play with and explore. Personally I don't like to blur the lines between fighters and wizards much at all, but what would be unused Mana just sitting in everyone does kind of beg for some kind of application. What if these types of abilities were only known to a certain class of fighters? You'd end up with "Jedi", and now a mechanism to regulate how much of that trickery they could do, and how often.

Along those lines an unfulfilled idea in my old group was that powering spells from a Mana attribute or stat would enable the invention of new races of very small creatures, such as Fairies or Leprechauns, species with very little physical ST, but still having a built-in power source for spells and magic.

And maybe creatures already in the canon would now have explanations for abilities that previously seemed to fall outside the rules. For example, it turns out Gargoyles can fly despite their weight and diminutive wings because they have a innate Flight Spell, and that Mana reservoir to pay for using it :)
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:14 AM   #39
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

Well, introducing a fourth stat, and that stat being magical, is bound to push the game into more 'magicky' territory. It would change the flavour, but I see it more like going the Runequest route than major Jedi powers. It feels like Jedi are more akin to wizards than highly attuned warriors. I see mana skills as more Bruce Lee? More 'monkish'.

In terms of limiting it, then you could easily make it hard to gain the knowledge to tap into these mana skills. And if you are happy that the PCs are actually a little bit special then a GM could say it's ok for PCs and major NPCs to have access to these skills in a naive sense, like a natural ability. Heroes are often able to do things mere mortals cannot. Even if it just gives people a minor edge, that is sometimes all you need.

Love your fairy/gargoyle ideas :)
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:58 AM   #40
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

Just some notes on Mana Skills


(Dice roll vs Mana (or vs IQ?) - Mana cost to use)

Costs to 'learn' - like talents? Mana level requirements to unlock?

Rolls are made vs current mana? Unless stated skills take no time to activate, you just will them.


Martial

Like a Rock (3-5) - resist the DX- effects of a 5 damage hit, or reduce 8 damage knockdown to a 5 effect.

Power strike (2-4) - do +1 damage if you hit. Must activate before rolling to hit.

Nine Lives (3-1) - if 'dead' repair damage trading 1 Mana per point restored. Mana loss is permanent.

Focus (3-5) takes 1 turn to gain, +2 DX to next strike. If you take damage, dodge, defend or move more than 1 hex you lose focus. Can be 'held' if required. Applies to attacks and explosive physical acts such as an acrobatics move.

Slow Time (5-4) lasts 3 turns. Gives +1 DX, +1 initiative and all attacks on you are at -1.

Arrow Cut (3-2) when activated for a turn, allows roll against all missiles and thrown physical attacks to be deflected on 3d. 4/5d rolls vs double and triple damage hits.


Empathy

Connect (3-4) - Befriend/Antagonise: adjust a reaction roll by 1 either way. Can be used with beasts to form connection or to sense the mood of a person, crowd or monster.

Intuition (4-10) - takes 1 minute, if successful GM gives cryptic hint about the near future or near geography or state of well known person or place.

Persuade (var-5) - choose how many dice you want to roll. Roll under your Mana to make your case, then your target has to roll under IQ or Mana - their choice - to resist the message, or it will be broadly believed. For groups/mobs, use the best 'opponent', as if anyone argues against you it will probably be the smartest or most grounded one who speaks up.



Energy flow

Heal (3-6) - heals 1 hit of damage, takes 5 minutes plus small kit (varies). Can reduce poison (damage or save) by 1d.

Aid self (2-5) - add one to ST or DX, lasts 6 turns.

Succour (3-5) - raise the spirits of a person or group that can see and hear you, restoring 2 fatigue and 2 mana to each. Takes longer with larger groups.

Sensitive (3-2) - reduce any roll by 1 die if searching or watching for something, detecting lies, tracking, predicting the weather etc.

Fluid Move (3-2) - if defending or dodging, attackers must roll 1 extra die to hit you.

Creative Flow (3-3) - helps with gambling and artistic endeavours like music, acting or calligraphy, forgery, brewing, baking, silversmithing etc. Improves outcomes, with doubles and triples delivering outstanding and exceptional results. Roll every day or few hours of uninterrupted activity.

Luck (4-5) used to influence the outcome of a seemingly random physical process such as a coin toss, dice roll, name pulled from hat. Influence, not determine. Must tell the GM you are using this before the result is rolled/known.

Last edited by MikMod; 04-06-2020 at 05:03 AM.
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