Gaming Ballistic - GURPS Content Posts

[Kalzazz]

So to actually chop through that DR 6 plate (now DR 12), we need say Shaq doing a AOA with a very fine greataxe?

Actually . . . . even that doesn't work. Shaq, assuming he is a maximum human, does an all out strong swing for 2d+3, and his very fine greataxe is Sw+6, so he maxes at 21. Below the 25 to get past Edge Protection. Give him a SM+1 greataxe (still VF) and he can get to 23. Oh, and make that Axe Weighted, so were at 24 now. Oh! Shaq takes the Focused Fury perk, allowing him to extra effort Mighty Blows and All Out Attack strong together, now wielding the ultimate Axe the ultimate Shaq can (all out, extra effort, max damage) chop thru plate!

[Kalzazz]

Actually, from experience trying to play melee fighters in a ranged combat world, the issue is not so much 'the enemies turn you to Swiss cheese before you can close', range penalties are a thing, so often enemies will not be very good at hitting you until you are up in their faces and can hit them back (or if they are high quality enemies who can hit you at range, then they could hit you at range even if you were staying at range shooting at them).

The big issue is trying to maintain some semblance of competitive balance is hard for the DM and hard to make fly where Mr. Melee can successfully punch people in the face and contribute at it.

Mr. Melee has to close range to the enemies to hit them. And then he hits them using his ST damage. Ritter Ranged has been able to try and hit the enemies all the way from the starting point, and Ritter Ranged can let them have it with mighty wallops from say a M60 or BAR that Mr. Melee's ST doesn't stack up with (and ranged people can buy ST (or lifting ST) and wield bigger, better, shinier more wallopful guns as readily as melee people can buy ST for more wallopful punching and swordplay)

So the greater risk really is not 'enemies will shoot me and I die', because well, 'enemies will shoot me and I die' is a risk for everyone but is not really a melee specific risk, but 'my friends will shoot the enemies and they will die, and my contributions will be the same as if I stayed in the car playing on my iPhone'

[Verjigorm]

Well, something positive did indeed come out of my incoherent ramblings! Win!

I do wonder, do we keep the weapon modifiers to damage the same in this, or no?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

So to actually chop through that DR 6 plate (now DR 12), we need say Shaq doing a AOA with a very fine greataxe?

Actually . . . . even that doesn't work. Shaq, assuming he is a maximum human, does an all out strong swing for 2d+3, and his very fine greataxe is Sw+6, so he maxes at 21. Below the 25 to get past Edge Protection.

Not a rule I use or write posts considering. It's optional, and I don't exercise that option in my games or writing.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Actually, from experience trying to play melee fighters in a ranged combat world, the issue is not so much 'the enemies turn you to Swiss cheese before you can close', range penalties are a thing, so often enemies will not be very good at hitting you until you are up in their faces and can hit them back (or if they are high quality enemies who can hit you at range, then they could hit you at range even if you were staying at range shooting at them).

At least in a guns world, taking a second to aim tends to invert that fast. Heck, even suppression fire can get lucky, and it only takes one bullet.

Mr. Melee has to close range to the enemies to hit them. And then he hits them using his ST damage. Ritter Ranged has been able to try and hit the enemies all the way from the starting point, and Ritter Ranged can let them have it with mighty wallops from say a M60 or BAR that Mr. Melee's ST doesn't stack up with (and ranged people can buy ST (or lifting ST) and wield bigger, better, shinier more wallopful guns as readily as melee people can buy ST for more wallopful punching and swordplay)

So the greater risk really is not 'enemies will shoot me and I die', because well, 'enemies will shoot me and I die' is a risk for everyone but is not really a melee specific risk, but 'my friends will shoot the enemies and they will die, and my contributions will be the same as if I stayed in the car playing on my iPhone'

Yes, which is why further nerfing hand-to-hand damage in the face of firearms isn't necessarily a game problem needing to be solved, but rather a bit of internal consistency that bothers some people (including myself, but that's from a rules elegance rather than a play excellence perspective).

[Kalzazz]

Well, taking a second to aim also gives you an extra second to get closer to being in melee range and making the things die . . . though admittedly since you are now closer, you are easier to hit to!

My Tanuki City USA campaign is a mid-high powered (300pt), kitchen sink style mish mash modern day campaign, which has been going since 2004-5 or so, and I have not seen the 'melee guys get mowed down by ranged foes' problem, in part of course due to tempering player expectations (one of the pieces of advice given to players when doing chargen is 'Goons with AK-47s are the modern equivalent of the goblin. You will be facing goblins. Can your character win a fight with 12 goons with Skill 12 packing AK-47s? Consider this question in chargen', so characters tend to be created with some thought given to 'how will I fight gun wielders and win?'

Of course, the usual answer is 'Captain Hero is built on more points than the mook brigade, and has therefore got good dodge, armor, or something that makes him less likely to die, and he has Luck to negate that lucky hit'

Admittedly, Tanuki City USA is just about the most blatantly 'realism is banned, if my disbelief is ever in risk of being suspended something has gone wrong' game ever, so I do not use anything that is supposed to promote realism (though I don't turn on cinematic switches that much either really, no Stormtrooper Marksmanship etc) . . . . I suspect that some of the rules which hamper dodging would be really murder on trying to be Mr. Melee



When comparable caliber melee guys fight comparable power ranged guys (especially in the Wonderful World of Firearms) melee guys tend to die. Horribly. Because swords are only useful when your right next to the enemy, but guns are useful way before that. And guns are still pretty useful even at sword range to (honestly, I admit, I think guns get way to much penalized in close combat range . . . the vast majority of weapons retention stuff I've seen seems to stress the desirability of A - retaining the gun, and B - shooting people with the gun while retaining the gun . . . it doesn't stress 'and now the gun becomes useless')

But even ignoring 'melee makes it easier to die', the biggest problem is overcoming 'and melee makes it harder to make other things die'. For instance, on a character of mine, had decided to make a gadgeteer, who is a minion of Honda and such and uses a Honda Goldwing that turns into power armor. Well, I was at one point thinking 'Hmmm, Honda is Japanese, and Samurai are cool, I should use a Vibrokatana!', however, 'Hmm, Vibrokatana doesn't seem nearly as effective as an ETK Autocannon . . . I can't see why I would want to use one of those', especially since ETK Autocannon used a DX/E skill, and could have targeting software and such oh my, and did way more damage than a Vibrokatana wielded by a ST 40 combat walker (even if said person had Weapon Master), and then the Autocannon has a bazillion different ammo types you can choose different ammo for different situations and well . . . yeah

[Kalzazz]

Ah . . . I have hard times at times trying to remember which rules go with what . . . I've seen Edge Protection mentioned enough times when people discuss DR and ST based damage and whatnot I assumed it was in use

I have never actually used it myself for some reason

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Ah . . . I have hard times at times trying to remember which rules go with what . . . I've seen Edge Protection mentioned enough times when people discuss DR and ST based damage and whatnot I assumed it was in use

I have never actually used it myself for some reason

It was a decent enough patch for ST-based damage having... issues. However, if you fix the scaling of St-based damage, then you no longer need Edge Protection.

[Kalzazz]

I thought the idea on it was 'there should exist some state, where being hit by a sword hurts you, but does not actually involve the sword going through armor to cut flesh and deliver poisons etc'

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

It was a decent enough patch for ST-based damage having... issues. However, if you fix the scaling of St-based damage, then you no longer need Edge Protection.

Well, you might need something like it, because it's also a patch for cutting attacks having better penetration than impaling attacks.