Falchions: is there a point in using them?

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by jabarto

There's something I've been wondering off and on for a while now, in regards the falchions in Low Tech and the falchion variant in Low Tech Companion 2. Simply put, I'm unclear on what exactly they're suppose to be good at, particularly the large variant.
...
Now, I'm guessing there's some realistic/historical/etc. reason for this, but I do have to wonder why time was even taken to stat them if there's no obvious reason to want one. Or is there something I'm missing?

For one thing, an axe with a top spike is only available in a few places and times. If you go to a town with a large arms industry and get one made custom, the GM can charge whatever he wants for it. Its likely that a fighting axe with a three- or four-foot haft (an Axe) can be carried in less places than a sword, and will draw more attention.

[Bruno]

Heavy, all metal construction allows for survivng abuse the axe can't take (attacks against the axe and general weapon damage rules), allows Very Fine weapon quality as a sword type weapon where the axe does not, uses Broadsword skill (which might be what is taught locally)...

And speaking of locally - the locals just may not have wood to waste on axe handles. Sufficiently desolate environments, environments that just don't have good wood, a (previously) perfectly nice environment where everything has been cut down already for agricultural land, fuel, or to drive out those damned elves?

[sir_pudding]

Historical falchions were woodsman's blades that did double duty as tools and weapons. Thin-bladed war axes make terrible brush clearing tools, an improvised tool penalty is appropriate to Hiking and Survival (maybe even Navigation) in dense wooded environments, if you are trying to use it to clear brush. It's better than no tools (-5) but not much. -3 I'd say.

EDIT: Obviously a penalty to Profession (Landscaping) too!

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Falchions also permit characters to transfer Broadsword skill onto a weapon optimized for cutting. A character (the literary version of Conan comes to mind) might be very strong and want to be able to emphasize that strength with a weapon built to maximize swing damage, but already be good at Broadsword and not want to invest the points in bringing up Axe/Mace. Switching to a falchion is something of a compromise.

To the contrary, the higher your ST, the more interested you are in having a weapon with no drawbacks, possibly at the cost of -1 to damage. Even more so with WM/TbaM.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

A machete is a short sword falchion.

Well, not really.

Machetes, goloks, parangs, etc. are thin and light and aren't intended to cut anything woody.A thick heavy blade would be counterproductive. The US military machete is only about 3mm thick and is about twice as thick as most "working" tools.


I would put a M-1910 , M1917 Bolo or a M43 Khukri in the falchion pile. Blade thickness is a nominal 6.5mm for all of them since they are general purpose clearing tools.

A pure chopper could easily be half an inch thick at the spine.

[DanHoward]

GURPS defines a machete as a short-sword falchion. It is a perfectly reasonable simplification for a game. In any case, for decades I've used plenty of thin machetes for clearing brush and they are still serviceable today.

[Ashtagon]

Falchions — There's no point to them, but they do give you an edge in combat.

[Panzerfaust]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Falchions — There's no point to them, but they do give you an edge in combat.

Pun intended?

From a min-max perspective you'd be better off with another weapon. However, what about a cultural one? You can min-max all you want but whats the fun of role playing if you don't get into certain mindsets and really challenge yourself? best way to grow as a role player is to throw the min-maxing to the wind and just really dig into something because it's cool.

My most recent character is one bad moment away from being a literal axe crazy nut job. She fights with a great axe primarily. She has two hand axes on her at all times however, and the skill to fight effectively using them at the same time. She'd be a lot more effective in combat if she did. But it's a lot more compelling to not screw with somebody when you see them swinging a large murder implement and they are doing so with some skill. Sometimes, it's just all about the image.

[Flyndaran]

Social reasons work. Seeing someone with a tool that can be used as a weapon is less suspicious than seeing someone with an object that can only be used as a weapon like a war axe or generic sword.

[jabarto]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Cost-wise, the axe is cheaper, but has less self DR, the top spike design requires advanced rules, and the cost difference closes up between axes and swords for fine and very fine weapons.

What advanced rules are your referring to, here? The only ones I'm aware of are the ones that actually pertain to actually statting the weapon, and falchions are no different in that regard. Also, a Very Fine axe is about the same price as a Fine Falchion, while a Very Fine falchion is still about 6-8 times more expensive, so the gap doesn't really close that much.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Partly though, I think this comes down to the granularity of GURPS. While both Falchions and Axes are Unbalanced weapons, realistically an Axe is likely more "unbalanced". Also, realistically the Edge Protection rules should be harsher to swords than axes (ie, slicing versus chopping) with Falchions occupying a middle ground between them. In short, the Falchion is an edge case that loses out because GURPS doesn't sufficiently distinguish between weapons with similar overall performance, but quite different usage.

I think this is the crux of the matter, really. Not sure what else can be said or done about it.

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

It's a good way to get a cheap short sword without losing cutting damage or durability .

I think this might actually be the best use for them. A cheap Falchion only costs $180, but it does similar damage to a $500 broadsword (with the addition of doing impaling damage on a thrust) and it's not any worse in regard to encountering heavier weapons.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

For one thing, an axe with a top spike is only available in a few places and times. If you go to a town with a large arms industry and get one made custom, the GM can charge whatever he wants for it. Its likely that a fighting axe with a three- or four-foot haft (an Axe) can be carried in less places than a sword, and will draw more attention.

Are you talking about historical use here? You have a good point about the amount of attention such a weapon would draw, but I don't see why it would necessarily be rare and expensive.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Heavy, all metal construction allows for survivng abuse the axe can't take (attacks against the axe and general weapon damage rules), allows Very Fine weapon quality as a sword type weapon where the axe does not, uses Broadsword skill (which might be what is taught locally)...

And speaking of locally - the locals just may not have wood to waste on axe handles. Sufficiently desolate environments, environments that just don't have good wood, a (previously) perfectly nice environment where everything has been cut down already for agricultural land, fuel, or to drive out those damned elves?

Durability is a plus, although as mentioned above the price discrepancy between equivalent-quality axes and swords doesn't change much, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

The lack of wood is a really interesting thought, though. Reminds me a bit of Vvardenfell from the Elder Scrolls games and how the locals adapted by using chitin for their weapons.

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust

Pun intended?

From a min-max perspective you'd be better off with another weapon. However, what about a cultural one? You can min-max all you want but whats the fun of role playing if you don't get into certain mindsets and really challenge yourself? best way to grow as a role player is to throw the min-maxing to the wind and just really dig into something because it's cool.

If that were my intent, I would bother with falchion rules at all. I would just buy a normal broadsword, say "it's a falchion" and be done with it. In fact, I think Low Tech itself says that a lot of real-world weapons are just cultural variations on something from the weapons table, and that giving them separate stats isn't usually called for.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you, just that the argument doesn't really work for justifying this specific weapon.