Grapple and Posture

[mook]

Here's one more point for the mix, that might bear on this - as far as I can tell, if you are bent over at the waist, you are still considered 'Standing'. If that's the case, then you probably could maintain a grapple on someone's head/neck while still remaining on two feet.

For the purposes of writing up these examples, I think I'll take the most conservative attempt at following the 'letter of the law' as written - namely, you must match the posture of your opponent if *attempting* a grapple, but you may remain standing (though likely bent over quite a bit) if *maintaining* a grapple on a thrown opponent.

At least until something more 'official' comes along. :)

As always, thanks much for weighing in on this and other questions - these examples really are a community effort, it would be an impossible project without so many helpful forum folks.

[Crakkerjakk]

Well, if you're maintaining a grapple on their head, I would say that this requires you at least to be crouched or kneeling. If they're prone, you would need to have your head at your knee level in order to maintain a choke while they were prone(I know chokes are different than grapples, but it's an easy to visualize real world example) and this would be pretty much the silliest thing in the world to do while attempting to choke someone out. Whats more, if bent double at the waist is the same as standing, it should be just as easy to hit you with a ranged weapon while you are bent in half, and you should be able to sprint at full move as well, just as if you were standing.

I think that crouched represents a "close enough" intermediate step that a) isn't hard to transition out of, b) works for both being crouched near a persons head or being bent over, regardless of what you think works best for a cranial grapple, and c) I guess there isn't really a c that adds to my argument without repeating a or b.

Anywho. Not a problem mook, glad to help. Your site is an excellent learning tool, as it's made me think about how combat(particularly unarmed combat) works in GURPS.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Mr. Cole, are you suggesting that a certain style allows you to throw an individual to the ground, yet maintain your grapple with that individuals head while standing? Cause it seems to me that "that dog just don't hunt," as my old company gunny used to say. If you have an example of this in the real world, I am willing to revise my opinion, but as it stands, I don't think realistically Judo should allow you to do this.

Not a head grapple. Arm grapple. Or a hip throw that captures the arm mid-throw. Obviously, the only way you can be standing and still grappling after a throw is for you to have a limb. I guess it's possible that you can throw by the neck and maintain it if you land him on his butt or something, but I've never learned it, seen it, and I don't think it'd work.

I just said "throw while maintaining grapple."

doug

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

In MOST of our arm and hip throws, we remain standing and maintain the grapple. If you go down with them, it's voluntary. We'd stay kneeling if we're dealing with multiple attackers but need to follow up with the thrown person. If it's one-on-one, we can go to ground.

Originally Posted by Krakkerjack

Mr. Cole, are you suggesting that a certain style allows you to throw an individual to the ground, yet maintain your grapple with that individuals head while standing?

I may have missed it in an earlier post, but I don't see any mention of staying upright and in contact through a head-throw. Certainly such a feat would require the victim to have an unusually long neck. That said, it is fairly easy to stay standing and retain an arm lock on someone you've thrown to the ground. Likewise, done properly you can keep or convert the armlock into an armbar and keep pretty good control over the victim's torso without even kneeling on them.

Or I could just stay out of it, and let Mr. Cole answer faster than I can.

[Crakkerjakk]

Sorry, I read the "The skill itself should allow anything" and fixated on that. In that case, you and I are in agreement. I think a limb throw should allow you to stay standing, and a head or torso throw obliges you to follow him at least partway down(if you want to maintain the grapple), although I guess there may be a head throw which ends with the victim sitting and you applying a rear choke or something while standing. I seem to remember something kinda like that from my old brazilian jujitsu(sp?) training, but it was a while ago, and I don't think I ever used it because throwing people by their heads would probably invite a neck injury.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I seem to remember something kinda like that from my old brazilian jujitsu(sp?) training, but it was a while ago, and I don't think I ever used it because throwing people by their heads would probably invite a neck injury.

We have three throws by the neck that I've learned. All of them purposefully target the neck for breakage. All should probably be modeled as a AoA with a Neck Grapple followed by a Head Lock/throw from Lock (p. MA 74 and p. MA118-119).

[Crakkerjakk]

Oh yeah, I just have trouble remembering a head grapple that involves me staying upright while they go seated. I remember a couple that involve throwing them and following them down in a way that will snap the neck.

[gmillerd]

I have had the same problem, when you grapple and lock, achieve the agony affliction and the guy slumps over on you. Suddenly your worried about the secured grapple failing because of the posture change.

[Dagger of Lath]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Mr. Cole, are you suggesting that a certain style allows you to throw an individual to the ground, yet maintain your grapple with that individuals head while standing? Cause it seems to me that "that dog just don't hunt," as my old company gunny used to say. If you have an example of this in the real world, I am willing to revise my opinion, but as it stands, I don't think realistically Judo should allow you to do this.

The person is thrown while a hold is maintained on the arm. The arm is then twisted to create a painful armlock. This hold can be performed while standing with the target on the ground, their arm raised to where it is being held by the martial artist.

For further effectiveness the martial artist can place a foot on the neck, though this will get you barred from most sporting judo assosciations before you can blink.

[mook]

Whoa. The weird thing isn't that you're posting in a 9-year-old thread... it's that I was working on and researching these examples two hours ago. Creepy.

Anyway, looking back over the discussion, I can't quite nail down why I thought it was assumed a grapple is maintained after throwing an opponent (I have no problem believing you can, but it doesn't seem to be the RAW default assumption).

Unless anyone has thoughts on how/why that actually is the default assumption, I will update my examples FAQ accordingly.