Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...

[Tim Kauffman]

FanMade WIP variant rule musings for "Stealth" units:
Rangers, Stealth OGREs (NINJA, SHINOBI -FanMade unit-, ect.), https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...57688275408641 and GEV Aces. ;)

ALPHA STRIKE
Stealth units always attack first when engaged in an Overrun.
If the attacker and defender are both Stealth units the defender attacks first as usual.

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

The Stealth Token and units so designated cannot be attacked until the Stealth Token is removed. (See below).

The main issue is that for stealth to really work requires hidden movement, which requires bookkeeping (and potentially a lot of it!). While that can be fun if everyone involved is into it, it's kind of counter to the simplicity of the Ogre mechanics which require minimal bookkeeping (mostly just Ogre record sheets).

Stealth units (at least non-Ogre ones) should also still be vulnerable to spillover fire. But I'm not sure how to handle it without getting even meeiser. Also, what happens to a stealth unit that moves but doesn't attack? Does it remain stealthed, or is it revealed before the opponent's fire phase? And what about games with more than two players? The mechanic as listed breaks down when there's more than 1 opponent's turn.

Still, it does make for an interesting variant concept - I'm interested to hear how well it works in practice.

[GranitePenguin]

this is where the PC version would be really helpful (we've certainly seen enough "stealth" play during debugging) ;-)

[Tim Kauffman]

Ok, upon closer scrutiny, I removed the STEALTH rule pending further development.

But what about ALPHA STRIKE? It's simple and has a nice edge to it for a "Stealth" unit. No Tokens, just the two short sentence rule. They get to attack first in Overruns. Simple. This is something that suits them well.

Stipulations to be considered:

Are only other Stealth units able to be brought in to participate in the Overrun? I'm thinking yes.

Does it apply to all units in the same hex as the Stealth unit that initiated the Stealth Overrun and those brought in to participate? I'm thinking no, a "Stealth Overrun" can only be conducted by Stealth units.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

this is where the PC version would be really helpful (we've certainly seen enough "stealth" play during debugging) ;-)

lol. But seriously folks, I have noticed there seems to be more subtle additions and things happening with the UI and unit command functions, ect. that I didn't notice before until recently. Some cosmetic stuff going on and sound changes as well.

[offsides]

I'm not sure I like the idea of any attackers firing first in an overrun, but I'm willing to agree that it's worth playtesting to see if it's workable or if it's too unbalanced. However one of the reasons the defender fires first is because they know the attacker is coming, and thus are prepared to fire as soon as they see them.

What I would suggest is this:

1) Stealth units only get their first strike advantage if all the units in the overrun are stealthy. Other non-stealth units can join the overrun, but if they do the first strike ability is lost by all attackers. Because the non-stealth units provide sufficient warning to the defenders to be prepared.

2) I don't care how electronically stealthy you are, and Ogre is NOT going to be able to sneak up on anybody while moving - it just makes too much "ground noise" to not be picked up by either audio or seismic sensors. That said, it may be able to get close enough to get off a shot sooner than a non-stealth Ogre.

So perhaps the answer is no so much as "first strike" as it is "simultaneous strike" - which is still an advantage to the attacker vs. normal overrun combat. This could be done one of 2 ways: The Axis & Allies way (attacker fires first, defenders that are hit get moved behind the line as destroyed but get off one final shot), or "true" simultaneous where both sides declare who they're firing at, and once everyone has a target declared you roll to see who gets hit. I think the former is probably better as it doesn't require pre-declaring your targets, which isn't required with anything else other than cruise missiles (and even then, only when firing multiples in one turn).

This also begs the question, what happens in round 2, assuming both sides survive round 1? Does the defender fire first as normal now, essentially giving them 2 shots in a row? I would think so, but again this is probably something that requires playtesting to figure out...

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

lol. But seriously folks, I have noticed there seems to be more subtle additions and things happening with the UI and unit command functions, ect. that I didn't notice before until recently. Some cosmetic stuff going on and sound changes as well.

I think so, too. I swear the way hex highlighting when moving looks different (specifically, a difference in the edge markings on the corners that gives a rounded look illusion).

[GranitePenguin]

This feels mostly like a solution looking for a problem to me. Overruns are quirky enough already, why add another fiddly element to them that breaks game flow? What problem are you trying to "fix"?

Issues I see (list not all-inclusive, let's start with these):

• What makes a unit an "alpha strike" (AS) unit? Is it supposed to represent some element of stealth?
• Is a unit always an AS unit? If yes, can it lose that status? if no, what rules need to be written to determine if/when it is an AS unit? The point being: it's not very stealthy and worthy of a first strike if I already know it's stealthy and coming.
• Is this only an overrun rule (I assume yes)? If yes, it's a horribly narrow definition/use case that doesn't justify the expense of tracking it just on the off chance it might be used in an overrun. If no, that is unnecessary because every unit is already an AS unit during a normal turn.

Basically, I see a diminishing ROI on the rule for something that might happen once in a game, that doesn't really add anything helpful, and also makes it less enjoyable due to fiddly bookkeeping.

Overruns are rare; if you have a lot of them, you are probably doing it wrong. The reason overruns suck for the attacker is because they are _supposed to suck_ for the attacker. They are a bad idea and a desperation move to be done only when you have no other way to get where you are going. The current rules make that very plain. Trying to sprinkle in advantages for the attacker sends the wrong message and diminishes the value of the defensive position; there should be ZERO advantages for the attacker in an overrun.

[selenite]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

The reason overruns suck for the attacker is because they are _supposed to suck_ for the attacker. They are a bad idea and a desperation move to be done only when you have no other way to get where you are going.

Overruns are how infantry punishes armor that don't respect them enough to stay clear.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

I think so, too. I swear the way hex highlighting when moving looks different (specifically, a difference in the edge markings on the corners that gives a rounded look illusion).

I noticed this too and it's recent. The corners are rounded now like you say. They are also smaller so now their is a bit of a space between the highlight and the hex outline. I think it's a nice improvement.

They also changed the water surface textures.
They are wavier now as when a pebble disturbs the stillness of the surface of the pond...https://youtu.be/ajEOZ4tBqjQ

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by offsides

What I would suggest is this:

1) Stealth units only get their first strike advantage if all the units in the overrun are stealthy. Other non-stealth units can join the overrun, but if they do the first strike ability is lost by all attackers. Because the non-stealth units provide sufficient warning to the defenders to be prepared.

Nice. Agreed.

Originally Posted by offsides

2) I don't care how electronically stealthy you are, and Ogre is NOT going to be able to sneak up on anybody while moving - it just makes too much "ground noise" to not be picked up by either audio or seismic sensors. That said, it may be able to get close enough to get off a shot sooner than a non-stealth Ogre.

What if that ground noise, ect was spoofed by the Stealth unit so when the enemy receives the sensor signals for them, they are actually receiving manipulated data that reads to them as if nothing is there...or specifically right there, but it's close to here, ect. Not necessarily, but something like a carrier wave being used.

Originally Posted by offsides

So perhaps the answer is no so much as "first strike" as it is "simultaneous strike" - which is still an advantage to the attacker vs. normal overrun combat. This could be done one of 2 ways: The Axis & Allies way (attacker fires first, defenders that are hit get moved behind the line as destroyed but get off one final shot), or "true" simultaneous where both sides declare who they're firing at, and once everyone has a target declared you roll to see who gets hit. I think the former is probably better as it doesn't require pre-declaring your targets, which isn't required with anything else other than cruise missiles (and even then, only when firing multiples in one turn).

Originally Posted by offsides

This also begs the question, what happens in round 2, assuming both sides survive round 1? Does the defender fire first as normal now, essentially giving them 2 shots in a row? I would think so, but again this is probably something that requires playtesting to figure out...

However, there is also the consideration of how "surprised" the enemy units are and how long it takes them to recover from a stealth attack and regain normal operational status. This could be a fixed or flexible thing...I'm favoring the flexible:

What if the ALPHA STRIKE continues until the first Stealth unit (there could be more than one) in the Overrun takes damage in the form of a X and D in the case of Infantry. (D "Xs" a squad).

This is then balanced when the defender gets those two attacks in a row right after the Stealth unit loses it's "surprise" ALPHA STRIKE.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

This feels mostly like a solution looking for a problem to me. Overruns are quirky enough already, why add another fiddly element to them that breaks game flow? What problem are you trying to "fix"?

The -1 to-be-hit is not enough. There should be more incentive and opportunity for a Stealth unit in OGRE to be stealthy in it's operations on the nuclear battlefield of the 21st Century. By their inherent nature, stealth units should have some advantage other than being more difficult to hit when attacking enemy defensive positions (represented in OGRE by the Overrun). Currently there is none. Indeed, using stealth to penetrate enemy defenses and gain the advantage which would be in the form of doing more damage faster than the enemy can to you is their primary function is it not? Being harder to hit is not specifically suited to this, however something like ALPHA STRIKE is.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Issues I see (list not all-inclusive, let's start with these):

• What makes a unit an "alpha strike" (AS) unit? Is it supposed to represent some element of stealth?

• Yes. It represents the units inherent "stealth" capability being leveraged in the fight. (Overrun).
  
  

  Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

  Is a unit always an AS unit? If yes, can it lose that status? if no, what rules need to be written to determine if/when it is an AS unit? The point being: it's not very stealthy and worthy of a first strike if I already know it's stealthy and coming.

  It's sort of like a units Defense value. There is more to that value than just the units armor as a stationary target.
  
  

  Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

  Is this only an overrun rule (I assume yes)? If yes, it's a horribly narrow definition/use case that doesn't justify the expense of tracking it just on the off chance it might be used in an overrun. If no, that is unnecessary because every unit is already an AS unit during a normal turn.

Yes this is only in Overruns.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Basically, I see a diminishing ROI on the rule for something that might happen once in a game, that doesn't really add anything helpful, and also makes it less enjoyable due to fiddly bookkeeping.

It helps the Stealth unit when it's used behave more like a unit that has stealth capability. Specifically by infiltrating enemy defenses and doing more damage faster then the enemy does to them.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Overruns are rare; if you have a lot of them, you are probably doing it wrong. The reason overruns suck for the attacker is because they are _supposed to suck_ for the attacker.
They are a bad idea and a desperation move to be done only when you have no other way to get where you are going. The current rules make that very plain. Trying to sprinkle in advantages for the attacker sends the wrong message and diminishes the value of the defensive position; there should be ZERO advantages for the attacker in an overrun.

Overrunning will naturally happen more often with Stealth units because this is inherently what they do and so they cannot be put in the same category as non-stealth units. Thus, Overruns will still suk for them, just not as hard...because they are made to better manage such situations, which is why they were designed and built.