11-18-2018, 06:14 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
FanMade WIP variant rule musings for "Stealth" units:
Rangers, Stealth OGREs (NINJA, SHINOBI -FanMade unit-, ect.), https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...57688275408641 and GEV Aces. ;) ALPHA STRIKE Stealth units always attack first when engaged in an Overrun. If the attacker and defender are both Stealth units the defender attacks first as usual.
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 11-24-2018 at 03:35 PM. |
11-19-2018, 09:50 AM | #2 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheltenham, PA
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
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Stealth units (at least non-Ogre ones) should also still be vulnerable to spillover fire. But I'm not sure how to handle it without getting even meeiser. Also, what happens to a stealth unit that moves but doesn't attack? Does it remain stealthed, or is it revealed before the opponent's fire phase? And what about games with more than two players? The mechanic as listed breaks down when there's more than 1 opponent's turn. Still, it does make for an interesting variant concept - I'm interested to hear how well it works in practice.
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Joshua Megerman, SJGames MIB #5273 - Ogre AI Testing Division |
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11-19-2018, 11:52 AM | #3 |
Ogre Line Editor
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
this is where the PC version would be really helpful (we've certainly seen enough "stealth" play during debugging) ;-)
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GranitePenguin Ogre Line Editor |
11-19-2018, 09:42 PM | #4 |
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
Ok, upon closer scrutiny, I removed the STEALTH rule pending further development.
But what about ALPHA STRIKE? It's simple and has a nice edge to it for a "Stealth" unit. No Tokens, just the two short sentence rule. They get to attack first in Overruns. Simple. This is something that suits them well. Stipulations to be considered: Are only other Stealth units able to be brought in to participate in the Overrun? I'm thinking yes. Does it apply to all units in the same hex as the Stealth unit that initiated the Stealth Overrun and those brought in to participate? I'm thinking no, a "Stealth Overrun" can only be conducted by Stealth units. lol. But seriously folks, I have noticed there seems to be more subtle additions and things happening with the UI and unit command functions, ect. that I didn't notice before until recently. Some cosmetic stuff going on and sound changes as well.
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars |
11-20-2018, 10:19 AM | #5 |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheltenham, PA
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
I'm not sure I like the idea of any attackers firing first in an overrun, but I'm willing to agree that it's worth playtesting to see if it's workable or if it's too unbalanced. However one of the reasons the defender fires first is because they know the attacker is coming, and thus are prepared to fire as soon as they see them.
What I would suggest is this: 1) Stealth units only get their first strike advantage if all the units in the overrun are stealthy. Other non-stealth units can join the overrun, but if they do the first strike ability is lost by all attackers. Because the non-stealth units provide sufficient warning to the defenders to be prepared. 2) I don't care how electronically stealthy you are, and Ogre is NOT going to be able to sneak up on anybody while moving - it just makes too much "ground noise" to not be picked up by either audio or seismic sensors. That said, it may be able to get close enough to get off a shot sooner than a non-stealth Ogre. So perhaps the answer is no so much as "first strike" as it is "simultaneous strike" - which is still an advantage to the attacker vs. normal overrun combat. This could be done one of 2 ways: The Axis & Allies way (attacker fires first, defenders that are hit get moved behind the line as destroyed but get off one final shot), or "true" simultaneous where both sides declare who they're firing at, and once everyone has a target declared you roll to see who gets hit. I think the former is probably better as it doesn't require pre-declaring your targets, which isn't required with anything else other than cruise missiles (and even then, only when firing multiples in one turn). This also begs the question, what happens in round 2, assuming both sides survive round 1? Does the defender fire first as normal now, essentially giving them 2 shots in a row? I would think so, but again this is probably something that requires playtesting to figure out...
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Joshua Megerman, SJGames MIB #5273 - Ogre AI Testing Division |
11-20-2018, 11:43 AM | #6 |
Ogre Line Editor
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
I think so, too. I swear the way hex highlighting when moving looks different (specifically, a difference in the edge markings on the corners that gives a rounded look illusion).
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GranitePenguin Ogre Line Editor |
11-20-2018, 12:08 PM | #7 |
Ogre Line Editor
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
This feels mostly like a solution looking for a problem to me. Overruns are quirky enough already, why add another fiddly element to them that breaks game flow? What problem are you trying to "fix"?
Issues I see (list not all-inclusive, let's start with these):
Basically, I see a diminishing ROI on the rule for something that might happen once in a game, that doesn't really add anything helpful, and also makes it less enjoyable due to fiddly bookkeeping. Overruns are rare; if you have a lot of them, you are probably doing it wrong. The reason overruns suck for the attacker is because they are _supposed to suck_ for the attacker. They are a bad idea and a desperation move to be done only when you have no other way to get where you are going. The current rules make that very plain. Trying to sprinkle in advantages for the attacker sends the wrong message and diminishes the value of the defensive position; there should be ZERO advantages for the attacker in an overrun.
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GranitePenguin Ogre Line Editor |
11-20-2018, 03:16 PM | #8 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Minnesota
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
Overruns are how infantry punishes armor that don't respect them enough to stay clear.
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11-20-2018, 05:52 PM | #9 | |
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
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They also changed the water surface textures. They are wavier now as when a pebble disturbs the stillness of the surface of the pond...https://youtu.be/ajEOZ4tBqjQ
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 11-20-2018 at 05:56 PM. |
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11-20-2018, 07:27 PM | #10 | ||||||||||
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Kicking around some stealth unit ideas...
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What if the ALPHA STRIKE continues until the first Stealth unit (there could be more than one) in the Overrun takes damage in the form of a X and D in the case of Infantry. (D "Xs" a squad). This is then balanced when the defender gets those two attacks in a row right after the Stealth unit loses it's "surprise" ALPHA STRIKE. Quote:
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 11-20-2018 at 07:32 PM. |
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