The Illyrian Sport

[Kromm]

Each participant has a persistent grapple on the right arm of his opponent using his own right arm, with the consequences that:

• He can't step out of close combat with his foe – although if he somehow has twice his foe's ST, he can drag his foe (see pp. B370-371).
  
  
• He's subject to Defense While Grappling (Martial Arts, p. 121): -1 to Dodge, -2 to Parry, and simply can't retreat, attempt Acrobatic Dodge, or use his right arm to parry.
  
  
• He can't use his right arm for offense other than a one-handed grappling follow-up that either targets his foe's right arm (Arm Lock or Wrench Arm) or that requires a grapple anywhere on his foe's body (Beat vs. Dodge [Martial Arts, pp. 100-101], Judo Throw, Sacrifice Throw, Shoving People Around [Martial Arts, p. 118], Sweep as a pull in the clinch [Martial Arts, p. 81], or takedown). Anything that expressly says it requires two hands will be subject to the limitations of The Sound of One Hand Grappling (Martial Arts, p. 116) unless he drops his blade and commits the other hand, as described on p. 117 of Martial Arts.

In addition, unless he's left-handed, or has Ambidexterity or Off-Hand Weapon Training (Knife), he'll be at -4 to Knife skill, which also gives -2 to Parry on top of the -2 for being grappled and -1 for using a knife . . . yikes. Main-Gauche skill would eliminate the -2 for defending with the off hand and -1 for using a knife, at least; it wouldn't help with offense, or offset being grappled.

Of course, his foe would be subject to all the same limitations.

This would be a short, bloody fight with very little defense possible. The main strategy would be whether the fighter with higher Basic Speed leads with an aggressive attack, hoping to win instantly by blasting through his foe's limited defense, or decides to put his foe in a bad offensive or defensive spot via pulling on his arm. The slower fighter would have to follow that lead. It would be a little like dancing . . . I'd allow Feint (Dancing) to work here, if someone had it (see the box on p. 101 of Martial Arts).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I don't know enough about that period to say for sure, but I suspect that "destitute patrician" is a contradiction in terms.

I disagree. Plenty of patrician families proved unable to maintain their position in society. The gens Curtius could simply be one more example.

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Unless the entire gens Curtius is extinct, it would at the very least provide a small allowance to keep him from embarrassing them.

Agreed. But note that since we have no historical record of a gens Curtius, it is far from unlikely that it would be excinct.

The vast majority of patrician families lost their position and/or became extinct before the end of the Republic.

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Nor would any wealth he had disappear while he was held captive by pirates, since, as a patrician, all his wealth would be derived from ownership of land. He could have paid a lot of it for ransom, but he wouldn't sell everything, nor would the pirates expect him to. They'd set the ransom to fit with his wealth (or his father's wealth).

Payment of ransoms was included in the yearly colonial tributes to Rome. He'd not have to find a sestertius himself unless he saw himself honour-bound to repay whatever town found his ransom.

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

If you do make him serve in the legions (I'm really not sure his fellow nobles running the legions would even allow it, but say they would), be sure to give him a hefty negative reputation with the upper class, since he would have been expected to commit suicide rather than demean himself and embarrass his ancestors.

Serving in the legions would not have been seen as dishonourable in the period.

It is, however, very likely that unless his family had become destitute many generations ago he would be able to find position as a contubernalis and later tribunis militaris through patronage, official or unofficial.

[Verjigorm]

Ok, thanks guys. Kromm and Brett both point out that the Ludus Illyricum(awesome, i have a cool name for it!) would be a bloody game. Which works, because the Illyrians were apparently a terryfying people to the Romans. So I like it.

Follow-ups to it: Would the participants in the Ludus Illyricum have a -4 to skil ldue to beign grappled? For instance, when they attempt to stab/cut each other, would they be at a net -8(off-hand AND grappled) or just -4 to skill?

Next, regarding Decius Curtius and his background: the backstory for Decius is that his father owned land on both sides of the Adriatic, or atleast had some commercial intrest in Illyria. He would spend his summers in Illyria, bringing his son(Decius) with him. On the Voyage back in 235 bc, their ship is overtaken by Illyrian pirates, Father is killed and Decius becomes a slave at the age of 14.

By the time Decius is 16, he's impressed the Illyrians who captured hi mwith his bravery and skill, and he now partipates in the raids and tribal warfare. Before Decius turns 19, he manages to escape from Illyria and return to Italia.

Now, here's where the rub is: How does a Patrician convince people that he's actually a Patrician? Especially when he arrives dressed as an Illyrian, he hasn't spoken latin for 4 years, so his latin is atrocious and accented, his greek and celtic all carry an Illyrian accent. Even if he has family left alive, i can't imagine that they'd believe his story. Does that sound plausible, atleast?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Follow-ups to it: Would the participants in the Ludus Illyricum have a -4 to skil ldue to beign grappled? For instance, when they attempt to stab/cut each other, would they be at a net -8(off-hand AND grappled) or just -4 to skill?

No penalty for being grappled except inability to use the body party in question. The -4 penalty is when the Torso is grappled.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Next, regarding Decius Curtius and his background: the backstory for Decius is that his father owned land on both sides of the Adriatic, or atleast had some commercial intrest in Illyria. He would spend his summers in Illyria, bringing his son(Decius) with him. On the Voyage back in 235 bc, their ship is overtaken by Illyrian pirates, Father is killed and Decius becomes a slave at the age of 14.

You'll need to provide a reason for why the Illyrian pirates decided not to demand a ransom for him from the closest town with 'friend and ally of the Roman people' status. Such a ransom would most likely be far higher than what they'd get for a slave, particularly a recently seized and potentially troublesome one.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Now, here's where the rub is: How does a Patrician convince people that he's actually a Patrician? Especially when he arrives dressed as an Illyrian, he hasn't spoken latin for 4 years, so his latin is atrocious and accented, his greek and celtic all carry an Illyrian accent. Even if he has family left alive, i can't imagine that they'd believe his story. Does that sound plausible, atleast?

Romans took genealogy very seriously. He'd most likely have a 'look' of his father, his family would remember him from his youth, the fact that he knew details of his ancestors would count in his favour and finally, he'd have an education that was far superior to what any native Illyrian was likely to have.

He'd have learned pure Attic Greek as a child and all the rules of rhetoric. It's very unlikely that someone who'd spent ten years learning to talk perfect Latin and Greek would lose that in four years. He might be rusty at first, but, then again, he's probably been using Greek for all of those four years.

His manners would be another tell. No native barbarian is likely to have spent as long learning how to behave in a Roman noble context. He'd still know how, even if he was initially a bit out of practice.

[Verjigorm]

First: thanks Icelander. I only dabble in these kinds of things, but I really want this game to have an authetentic feel. So I'm not arguing with you, just trying to refine Decius's back story.

You'll need to provide a reason for why the Illyrian pirates decided not to demand a ransom for him from the closest town with 'friend and ally of the Roman people' status. Such a ransom would most likely be far higher than what they'd get for a slave, particularly a recently seized and potentially troublesome one.

Perhaps the Illyrians didn't know he was a roman nobleman? Perhaps he was hiding amongst the slaves or servants? I'm stretching here, but I want him to be a "self-made" kinda man. Maybe one of the Illyrians though Decius was cute. I'm not sure if the Illyrians were pederasts or not, but if they were influenced by greeks, I don't see why there isn't a potential for it.

How does inheritance work in Roman culture? I don't think they practiced primogenture, and I know the Father is very important. But if Decius senior is dead, and Decius has a brother or brother-in-law, who would've inherited most of the property, and what's the legal status of Decius, if he's presumed dead?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

[...]he'll be at -4 to Knife skill, which also gives -2 to Parry on top of the -2 for being grappled and -1 for using a knife . . . yikes. Main-Gauche skill would eliminate the -2 for defending with the off hand and -1 for using a knife, at least; it wouldn't help with offense, or offset being grappled.

Whoa!

Does grappling a limb give the opponent a penalty to defences in general? That's different from how I remember the rules, which provide the whole body -4 DX (and concurrent Active Defence penalties) only on a Torso grapple.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Perhaps the Illyrians didn't know he was a roman nobleman? Perhaps he was hiding amongst the slaves or servants? I'm stretching here, but I want him to be a "self-made" kinda man. Maybe one of the Illyrians though Decius was cute. I'm not sure if the Illyrians were pederasts or not, but if they were influenced by greeks, I don't see why there isn't a potential for it.

There's potential, sure. A bit pulpy/cinematic, but maybe you're fine with that.

In my opinion, making him a patrician is kind of at odds with the 'self-made' image. What's wrong with a good plebeian family, adjust wealth and prominence to taste?

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

How does inheritance work in Roman culture? I don't think they practiced primogenture, and I know the Father is very important. But if Decius senior is dead, and Decius has a brother or brother-in-law, who would've inherited most of the property, and what's the legal status of Decius, if he's presumed dead?

It's complex.

Let's just say that if he's the eldest son, he has a villainous brother or uncle who had him declared dead.

[Verjigorm]

In relation, the Illyrians(amongst others) are suppoused to have used the Sica, which appears to be related to the Falx and Rhompia. Should the Sica just be modeled as a falchion or so? I know the weapon range in size from knife-like to the pole-arm/greatsword Falx and Rhompei.

In any case, would filing the serial numbers off the Kukri, Falchion, and large Falchion work for the knife-to sword-sized weapons. But what about the big'ole Falx. Is it a greatsword, or a pole-arm, particularly in skill? Quality is also important to me, as well. I've read a few snippets here and there about good meterallurgical quality for the rhompeia.

Speaking about quality, I'm thinking about making the majority of the gallic and roman weapons be of cheap quality: atleast one historian attests to the guals having to bend their swords back into shape during battle, and I'm begining to think the Pilum's extradionary reputation for going into the shield and bending may be as much due to being cheap as being a purposeful adaption*. A sword that bends easily when swung or hitting strikes me as a cheap sword, because it's useless untill straightened out. And in a battle, that could cost you your life. There's probably a case for having fine and good quality swords amongst the warrior elite of either race.


*that is then praised as a brilliant innovation from people who are generally mediocre innovators.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Depends on how literal you're being about transliteration and how picky you're being about historical linguistic flow. The Latin alphabet doesn't have the letter Y normally, so you could transliterate it as Illiricus;

Transliterate from Greek, that is? Ἰλλυρία -> Illiria rather than Ἰλλυρία -> Illuria

however, it seems like this in this case the Romans just borrowed the Y (in the form of Upsilon) from the Greeks when they transliterated the Greek name (Ἰλλυρία) to a Roman one, so "Illyricum" and "Illyria" are actually accurate.

Not just in that case. 'Y' was introduced into the Latin alphabet to transliterate upsilon, and used regularly for that purpose. I don't know why the Romans thought 'U' (or vowelic 'V', I guess) was inadequate for Υ.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Speaking about quality, I'm thinking about making the majority of the gallic and roman weapons be of cheap quality:

I don't think that's quite accurate. The arms and armour of Roman legionaries often passed from father to son and were quite expensive. And the Gauls encountered most often were the warrior elite, given how much their culture made of warfare and the fact that their serfs and slaves would not leave their lands.

Would there be plenty of Cheap weapons owned by people that were not dedicated warriors? Certainly. But a Roman legionary and a Gallic warrior (as opposed to serfs) would not carry those weapons.