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Old 03-25-2018, 05:18 AM   #11
Maz
 
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

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Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
It might help things out if it was mandated for two twin gladiators to share the same equipment as one solo gladiator. Unfair to give one ‘person’ two suits of armor, that kind of thing.
This ia the only factor I could see making up a little for the otherwise completely unfair fight.
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Old 03-26-2018, 12:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

The single soul mumbojumbo is just that, and it only applies to identical twins. The advantage these twins offer is obvious within universe so I'd expect many houses to train them from birth for the arena.

I'm assuming their attributes and advantages are pretty normalized though, they've already "won" the genetic lottery per say.

So I'm really trying to figure out what kind of Attribute/Advantage advantage the opponent would need to go toe to toe.

The other hickup within setting is that their gear needs to be identical too. They're thoroughly inspected, and disqualified if if found out of sync. So those very fine +19 CF longswords they'll be using will need to be custom ordered and meticulously made for parity. Same with armor, but the winnings aren't multiplied so the strategy is high maintenance.

Medical attention and careers are somthing that needs to be considered too, you'll want to play conservatively becouse these HP aren't coming back easily and the real success in the arena comes after you've spent years built a career and a following.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

Right OK as has been said 2 on 1 is a massive advantage, so any single gladiator going up against twins will need to have either proportional advantage in CP or advantage in equipment*

Another Way to go is to disadvantage the twins in some way to try and redress the balance. (thinking of Gladiator, maybe have them chained at the wrist?)


This question reminded me of a short thread a while back about twins fighting together.






*as in something like the one has armour and the twins don't

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-26-2018 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

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Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
Everything else won’t quite be equal, though. If only 3%/1% of the population consists of twins, that means the available talent pool to recruit from will be thirty to a hundred times greater for solo fighters. As a consequence, solo gladiators will be bigger, more athletic, more talented at violence. And as underdogs, they’ll be fan favorites.

They’ll still be about as common as NBA players shorter than five foot eight, but they’ll exist.
True, but given twins will enjoy such an inherent inbuilt advantage one would suppose that scouting, selection and training systems would be on the lookout for potential twin gladiators and that will compensate to an extent for that population imbalance.

The NBA example is actually a good example of this. Because lets face it the bulk of the training, talent spotting and resources goes on tall would be basketball players rather than short ones. Even if the very tall ones are like twins a tiny subset of the population.

Evidently the average height for an NBA player 2016-17 was 6' 7" that is over 3 SD away from median male Height in the US, and considerably rarer than the 3%/1%! (although some players are international so are drawn from a wider population, 24.8% in that year)

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Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
It might help things out if it was mandated for two twin gladiators to share the same equipment as one solo gladiator. Unfair to give one ‘person’ two suits of armor, that kind of thing.
That I really like, one sword, one shield etc, etc

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-26-2018 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:30 AM   #15
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

Looking at the proportions of twins in the population: note that having fraternal twins is a genetic trait, so if this gladiatorial selection has been going on long enough, there might be a higher proportion of children with this desirable trait.

Identical twinning isn't genetic (unless you change that for your setting) so their proportion wouldn't increase.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

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Originally Posted by Minuteman37 View Post
The single soul mumbojumbo is just that, and it only applies to identical twins. The advantage these twins offer is obvious within universe so I'd expect many houses to train them from birth for the arena.

I'm assuming their attributes and advantages are pretty normalized though, they've already "won" the genetic lottery per say.

So I'm really trying to figure out what kind of Attribute/Advantage advantage the opponent would need to go toe to toe.
Based on my analysis upthread, the lone fighter needs to overcome a -2 or worse Parry penalty to be on roughly even footing with the twins - because there is always going to be a twin attacking from his off-shield flank, which removes shield DB (assumed 2 in the example) and imposes the penalty from defending against a flank attack.

Lone fighters with Peripheral Vision would remove the flank defense penalty (and can defend against attacks from behind!). Another 4 points of skill over the twins would adjust for the lack of shield, and allow the lone fighter to make Deceptive Attacks that essentially cancel the twin's shield advantage.

So, let's look at that:
A typical twin gladiator is ST 12, DX 13, IQ 10, HT 12, Basic Speed 6.25, Combat Reflexes, Fit, Knife-15 [4], Shield-16 [8], Sword-16 [12], Parry 12+2, Block 12+2, Dodge 8+2. (a roughly 150 point character with some advantages, disadvantages, and skills that don't apply to combat).

A typical lone gladiator is ST 12, DX 13, IQ 10, HT 12, Basic Speed 6.25, Combat Reflexes, Fit, Peripheral Vision, Knife-15 [4], Shield-16 [6], Sword-20 [24], Parry 14+2, Block 12+2, Dodge 9+2 (a roughly 175 point character with some advantages, disadvantages, and skills that don't apply to combat).

The twins surround the lone fighter and try to get into his flank. One twin attacks from the front with skill-16, hits, and gets blocked with an effective Defense of 14 about 90% of the time. The other twin attack from the right flank with skill-16, and gets parried with an effective Defense of 14 about 90% of the time.

The lone fighter attacks a twin with Sword-16, taking a -4 penalty to attack and imposing a -2 Defense penalty. The twin blocks and retreats with a net Block skill of 13, and an 84% chance of success.

Per exchange of blows, the twins have a 18% chance of scoring a critical hit, a 1% chance of one of them critically failing, and around an 18% chance that one of them will get a non-critical hit past the lone fighter's defenses. The lone fighter has a 9% chance of scoring a critical hit, a 0.5% chance of critically missing, and a 9% chance that he'll get a blow through the twin's defenses.

That's still looking bad for the lone fighter. If he had Sword-24 and Shield-20, he would have Parry-16 and Block-14+2 and could attack at -8 to give a twin a -4 to Defend. The twins would get ~18% of their attacks (on a per turn basis) past his defenses by virtue of critical hits, and he would get 38% of his attacks of his attacks through by sheer skill. At that point, he might actually win - he's more likely to score a blow against one of the twins before either of him hit him, and since nobody has High Pain Threshold, shock penalties reduce effective skill below the amount necessary to get a critical hit, which really lowers the twins' chances of getting a critical hit past his defenses. And once he cripples a twin and can concentrate on the second one, his enormous skill advantage makes it likely he'll win. Of course, if the twins get lucky and get a critical hit past his defenses on turn 1, they may just win.

It's a simple analysis, but successful lone fighters in this environment need Peripheral Vision and a ridiculous skill advantage (+6 or more) and/or Extra Attack to beat a pair of twin gladiators.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:47 AM   #17
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

Interesting, I'm assuming Peripheral Vision isn't useful outside of this situation either?

I don't have access to my books right now.

Edit: also with skill 20 this dude would be the settings resident Grandmaster Swordsmen.

Last edited by Minuteman37; 03-26-2018 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:55 AM   #18
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

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Originally Posted by Minuteman37 View Post
Interesting, I'm assuming Peripheral Vision isn't useful outside of this situation either?

I don't have access to my books right now.
You get more freedom with "wild swings", and making ranged attacks.

It also gives bonuses to spotting shadowing and ambushes (and a general freedom for the GM to make vision rolls on stuff going on behind you)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-26-2018 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:18 AM   #19
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

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Originally Posted by Minuteman37 View Post
Interesting, I'm assuming Peripheral Vision isn't useful outside of this situation either?
It is an advantage that I know many would rule fall outside of realism for humans. Requiring cinematic traits to allow it.
Much like Perfect Balance or Extra Attack or Night vision. But it isn't an Exotic trait per se.
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Old 03-26-2018, 02:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Twins in Gladiatorial Combat

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Interesting, I'm assuming Peripheral Vision isn't useful outside of this situation either?
Peripheral Vision is useful in any situation where you expect to be attacked from the flanks or behind. I don't see it a lot in my Dungeon Fantasy games - it's a sometime useful bonus to defense that costs as much as Combat Reflexes does - but some of the longer lived melee types had it.

I might try rerunning the analysis later with the typical twin having skill-12 and the typical lone gladiator having skill-18 - the breakpoints are different. But that's around the level of skill difference you need, so if maximum reasonable skill is 20, all the lone gladiators are going to be around that level and all the twin gladiators are going to be just above amateurs. At roughly equal levels of skill, the twins are going to reliably beat a single gladiator.
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