Rules Question

Don Hawthorne · 04-05-2019, 02:59 PM

I know I am probably missing the answers right in front of my face, but I am bleary-eyed from looking for one and curious about interpretation of the other.

Does a Shield still count as a weapon?

If so, does “Two Weapons” skill (still) allow a character to use the Shield defensively to stop an extra two hits? I recall Steve once answering this question in the original TFT Q&A with: “That’s certainly the way I’ve been doing it.”

If “yes” to the above, can a player purchase “Weapon Expertise/Mastery” for their Shield?

If “yes”, although Expertise/Mastery bonuses do not stack for a particular weapon, would the bonuses for the weapon — a Sword, for example — overlap with those for a Shield? Or would the bonuses for two different weapons — Sword and Axe, for example — both apply if the character had Expertise/Mastery in both weapons?

This would allow very effective fighters, from loin-clothed barbarians to formidablly-armored Knights Templar.

I know it’s the GMs call, but is it allowable in the officially-envisioned design of the game?

Asking for a friend. 🙄

Thanks in advance.

Don H.

hcobb · 04-05-2019, 03:05 PM

There is a Shield Expertise skill with no minimum DX so my suggestion is to have adjDX zero.

larsdangly · 04-05-2019, 04:00 PM

My interpretation of the Two Weapons skill armor bonus is that it means a person with that talent can use an of handed weapon as an effective substitute for a large shield, but without the attendant -1 DX penalty (except it is no good vs. missiles)

Whatever Steve did or didn't write in a past FAQ, I would argue against 'doubling up' by allowing one to add this to the standard shield protection. That is, I do not believe the intent is for a person fighting with sword and large shield to get 4 points of protection (2 normally for the shield + 2 for the shield as an off handed weapon). I would justify this by saying that you have to choose whether you are using the shield in 'shield mode' or in 'second weapon mode' and you don't get to do both at once. Sort of like I can't stab with a spear and throw a spear as part of the same action on the same turn. Also, if it worked contrary to my suggestion, there would be no purpose for the Shield Mastery talent to exist, and the rest of the game generally assumes a sort of parsimony where there is only one talent per category of activity.

Basically, if one imposes an interpretation on an ambiguously worded rule and the end result is a free lunch, you are probably doing some sort of hack that runs contrary to the intent and spirit of the rules as a whole

hcobb · 04-05-2019, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly

there would be no purpose for the Shield Mastery talent to exist, and the rest of the game generally assumes a sort of parsimony where there is only one talent per category of activity.

I don't recall a Shield Mastery talent. Would you like me to write one up for you?

Can you bounce a Very Fine Silver shield off a wall and hit a Nazi in the back of the head?

Skarg · 04-05-2019, 04:24 PM

I've played TFT for quite a few years and this is the first I remember hearing someone propose using Two Weapons talent with a shield as one of the weapons.

I am surprised to hear there was ever a Q & A where Steve said yes he was doing that. (Where was that?)

If it does work that way, then certainly every intelligent-enough-for-the-talent sword & shield fighter would be rushing for the Two Weapons talent, since it would mean getting +2 protection from their shields.

I don't necessarily object to there being an expert talent that does that for shield users (but see Shield Expertise, which has similar difficulty and value).

However it does seem to me weird and unintended that there would be a natural great talent for sword & shield fighters which is Two Weapons AND also gives another two-weapon fighting style.

So like larsdingly, while I would be interested in seeing that old Q & A, I don't think you're supposed to be able to use a shield as one of the weapons in Two Weapons. And no, no taking Weapon Expert - Shield, either, but you could stack Shield Expertise with Weapon Expert - Sword.

Chris Rice · 04-05-2019, 04:50 PM

I never considered the shield a "weapon" for this purpose and I'm happy to stick with that view in the new edition.

FireHorse · 04-05-2019, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

I don't recall a Shield Mastery talent. Would you like me to write one up for you?

Can you bounce a Very Fine Silver shield off a wall and hit a Nazi in the back of the head?

Yes, but you need Shield Mastery II if you want the shield to then bounce off the Nazi's head and return to you.

04-05-2019, 02:59 PM	#1
Don Hawthorne Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: California, USA	Rules Question I know I am probably missing the answers right in front of my face, but I am bleary-eyed from looking for one and curious about interpretation of the other. Does a Shield still count as a weapon? If so, does “Two Weapons” skill (still) allow a character to use the Shield defensively to stop an extra two hits? I recall Steve once answering this question in the original TFT Q&A with: “That’s certainly the way I’ve been doing it.” If “yes” to the above, can a player purchase “Weapon Expertise/Mastery” for their Shield? If “yes”, although Expertise/Mastery bonuses do not stack for a particular weapon, would the bonuses for the weapon — a Sword, for example — overlap with those for a Shield? Or would the bonuses for two different weapons — Sword and Axe, for example — both apply if the character had Expertise/Mastery in both weapons? This would allow very effective fighters, from loin-clothed barbarians to formidablly-armored Knights Templar. I know it’s the GMs call, but is it allowable in the officially-envisioned design of the game? Asking for a friend. 🙄 Thanks in advance. Don H. __________________ "None of us is as smart, nobody else as stupid, as we'd like to believe." "If you would know a man's character, only observe how he plays a game."

04-05-2019, 03:05 PM	#2
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Rules Question There is a Shield Expertise skill with no minimum DX so my suggestion is to have adjDX zero. __________________ -HJC

04-05-2019, 04:00 PM	#3
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Rules Question My interpretation of the Two Weapons skill armor bonus is that it means a person with that talent can use an of handed weapon as an effective substitute for a large shield, but without the attendant -1 DX penalty (except it is no good vs. missiles) Whatever Steve did or didn't write in a past FAQ, I would argue against 'doubling up' by allowing one to add this to the standard shield protection. That is, I do not believe the intent is for a person fighting with sword and large shield to get 4 points of protection (2 normally for the shield + 2 for the shield as an off handed weapon). I would justify this by saying that you have to choose whether you are using the shield in 'shield mode' or in 'second weapon mode' and you don't get to do both at once. Sort of like I can't stab with a spear and throw a spear as part of the same action on the same turn. Also, if it worked contrary to my suggestion, there would be no purpose for the Shield Mastery talent to exist, and the rest of the game generally assumes a sort of parsimony where there is only one talent per category of activity. Basically, if one imposes an interpretation on an ambiguously worded rule and the end result is a free lunch, you are probably doing some sort of hack that runs contrary to the intent and spirit of the rules as a whole

04-05-2019, 04:24 PM	#5
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Rules Question I've played TFT for quite a few years and this is the first I remember hearing someone propose using Two Weapons talent with a shield as one of the weapons. I am surprised to hear there was ever a Q & A where Steve said yes he was doing that. (Where was that?) If it does work that way, then certainly every intelligent-enough-for-the-talent sword & shield fighter would be rushing for the Two Weapons talent, since it would mean getting +2 protection from their shields. I don't necessarily object to there being an expert talent that does that for shield users (but see Shield Expertise, which has similar difficulty and value). However it does seem to me weird and unintended that there would be a natural great talent for sword & shield fighters which is Two Weapons AND also gives another two-weapon fighting style. So like larsdingly, while I would be interested in seeing that old Q & A, I don't think you're supposed to be able to use a shield as one of the weapons in Two Weapons. And no, no taking Weapon Expert - Shield, either, but you could stack Shield Expertise with Weapon Expert - Sword.

04-05-2019, 04:50 PM	#6
Chris Rice Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland	Re: Rules Question I never considered the shield a "weapon" for this purpose and I'm happy to stick with that view in the new edition.