[Speculation] GURPS 4.5e

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by GM Joe

I think a reorganized 4e Basic Set would be a really good thing.

And, yes, PDFs with something beyond just the basics would be nice.

I dunno. I like the way 4th is laid out. Yes, Ill admit its as info-dense as any college textbook, but thats not really a bug, thats a feature of high value. Also, Id say its a pretty safe bet that considerable thought went into how 4th edition was laid out so fiddling with that is probably non trivial.

As far as the the basic nature of PDFs, one thing that I would like to see is more color, like pyramid. I dont know what the cost prohibition is on the pdfs being in black and white, or why thats cheaper, but Im pretty sure there is a reason.

Also, Id like to see more artwork. Period. I know there are cost reasons for that as well, but the more I look at Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1, the more I long for more artwork like that. I know it takes up valuable page space, but it does a lot to inspire imagination and creativity in me.

I'd like to note at this time that I know that artwork is always a subjective thing and that may be one of the reasons that its kept to a minimum, but generally, I favor the style and type of artwork done in DFM1 (richer more subtle palette and detail) over the higher contrast work done for example in DF2.

And, naught for nothing, If we were to go back and 'colorize' the existing PDFs, one of the few changes I would make would be to preserve the colorscheme of the Basic Set across all PDFs.

Blue borders on pages for Ads
Purple for Skills
etc

I think that might bring a more consistent look to the books.

Originally Posted by doulos05

I think it's a safe bet that everyone here will likely buy whatever SJ Games puts out simply on principle. The real question is whether it would sell to people who don't frequent the boards and people who don't currently play GURPS.

Personally, I feel like a rules database with a subscription model is the perfect way for a toolbox game like GURPS to go.
<snip>

Some devout fans still have to be selective in what they buy and I think that the pricepoint for GURPS is right about where it needs to be.

I only thing I DONT like about the Database/Rules model is I think I would weary of buying a rule at time which it seems is how it would end up.

Finally, go look at ALL the books for 3E. Its an impressive number. I used to hang out with a guy who had a complete collection and it was a vast treasure trove. However, it WAS a bit of a pain to sift through. I WOULD like to avoid that fate in 4th by grouping them as sensibly as possible into series (Similar to what we've done with DF, MH, and Action).

Say a GURPS:Historical Settings series for things LIKE (not necesarily reprints of) Aztec, Japan, Egypt etc.

Nymdok

p.s. It is my fondest wish that, once all told, the entirety of 4e line will dwarf the content of 3e. But thats a big hill to climb.

[wellspring]

Originally Posted by doulos05

I think it's a safe bet that everyone here will likely buy whatever SJ Games puts out simply on principle. The real question is whether it would sell to people who don't frequent the boards and people who don't currently play GURPS.

Precisely.

To that, let's also add that a new edition would represent a major investment of money, time, and managerial attention. Those are resources that could go into more supplements for the existing edition.

None of the tweaks and changes that I've seen in these threads, especially the ones I've suggested, would justify a slowdown in development of Vehicles or the steady and high-quality flow of PDF supplements.

Let's imagine we could go back in time two years. Would you appear before Kromm or Steve Jackson and tell him that CH as a core stat, or a reorganized core set would have been worth shelving Ritual Path Magic, Technical Grappling, and many others? I'm not seeing it.

I'd love a re-written Magic and Ultra Tech, not because the existing ones are bad, but because they could be so much better with what we know now. But not so much better that I'd bump anything in the pipeline.

The value of threads like this is that they help identify and clarify areas of improvement. They suggest good pyramid articles and suggestions for how a GM new to GURPS can use the system. And, someday, if a 5th ed does appear, these threads are a ready-made source of input that SJ/Kromm/PK can draw on without having to make any premature announcements.

[GM Joe]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

And, naught for nothing, If we were to go back and 'colorize' the existing PDFs, one of the few changes I would make would be to preserve the colorscheme of the Basic Set across all PDFs.

Blue borders on pages for Ads
Purple for Skills
etc

I think that might bring a more consistent look to the books.

I would love that.

And, since POD seems to be out of the question, it would be fantastic if they offered PDF packages that were set to go with LuLu (with a spine, etc.). Dreaming, I know, but what the heck...

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

And, naught for nothing, If we were to go back and 'colorize' the existing PDFs, one of the few changes I would make would be to preserve the colorscheme of the Basic Set across all PDFs.

Blue borders on pages for Ads
Purple for Skills
etc

I think that might bring a more consistent look to the books.

And, to show that nothing suits everyone, I'd find that counterproductive, and would prefer to have the existing colour borders removed, or the scheme dramatically simplified. There are too many colours, and I find it hard to tell some of them apart. I have learned to ignore them, but it's one of the things that initially put me off 4e, although I didn't initially realise that was what constantly confusing me.

[philosophyguy]

My major "complaint" with 4e is with the organization - you really need to spend some time flipping back and forth as you read in order to make sure you understand how the system works. This is especially true if you are the person who is introducing GURPS to a new group. PDFs like How to Be A GURPS GM help, but a GURPS 4.5e reorganization could do even better.

Some specific things I would like to see in a new Basic Set:

1) A longer introduction to roleplaying and the basics of the game, emphasizing the simplicity of GURPS and rule 0, with the options to add in everything else. The DND 5e Player's Handbook does a good job of this to set the tone. I would like to see the GURPS version stress the value of the generic, universal qualities: you learn this one system, and you can run any kind of roleplaying game you can imagine. It's there in the current Basic Set, but whether because it's really short, or because the visual design doesn't showcase the simplicity, or because the writing isn't as focused as it could be--it doesn't come through well.

2) Rules grouped together better so there is less page flipping. Lots of earlier posts in this thread have had great ideas.

3) When possible, mark rules by the degree of fiddling they add to the game. For instance, take the categories of combat complexity in How to Be A GURPS GM (41-42) and add shading or icons to mark those rules as belonging to whichever category in the Basic Set. That way, it is easy for a new GM to scan the rules and see recommended groupings for various levels of complexity, instead of having to judge each rule on its own. (The GM can still do that, eventually, but I'd like the rulebook to make it easier on a new GM to find the right level of complexity).

4) Have sequences laid out more clearly in one place. An example is the combat chapter from Basic Set: there's no list that says attacks follow a sequence of: attack roll, then defense roll, then damage roll, then DR, then calculate penetrating damage (or if there is, I didn't see it when I just flipped through). It was really hard, especially as a new GURPS-er, to understand the big picture of how all those rules fit together. A little bit of high-level overview would have been extremely helpful.

5) Sidebars should always be optional/flavor or should always be essential summaries. There's no visual distinction between How to Select Basic Attributes and Default Rolls (both essential, foundational concepts) and Shopping for the Big, Tall, Thin and Small or Changing Posture in Armor (optional details for special situations). As I'm reading, I should be trained either to read all the sidebars because they have core information in a place that pops visually so it's easier to find on a re-read, or to skip the sidebars unless I'm looking for color, special situations, etc. Right now, the reader has to be pulled out of the text every time to read the sidebar, often times making a judgment call about whether that content is important right now, and then finding where they were.

[D10]

Well, believe me when I tell you that its the equivalent of a TL increase over the organization we had in 3e.

As for learning it from zero, it could have been handled better, but GURPS should get a pass because it has this forum, the best forum ever with the best support ever.

All hail Dr Kromm

[philosophyguy]

Originally Posted by D10

Well, believe me when I tell you that its the equivalent of a TL increase over the organization we had in 3e.

As for learning it from zero, it could have been handled better, but GURPS should get a pass because it has this forum, the best forum ever with the best support ever.

All hail Dr Kromm

I absolutely agree about the value of this forum. I have no experience with 3e rules, so I'll trust you about the improvement since then.

My point was intended to be constructive rather than critical. GURPS does a ton of stuff incredibly well, and I don't think the system gets the credit it deserves. If there were to be a revision (and I agree that it's not worth the editorial resources right now), I think there are some reasonably straightforward things that could be done in order to improve it even more. I'm hoping that these comments will be reviewed by SJ Games if and when they ever do a new addition, and I want to offer my input on how they can make a great system showcase its strengths.

[D10]

Fair enough

[scc]

Originally Posted by johndallman

And, to show that nothing suits everyone, I'd find that counterproductive, and would prefer to have the existing colour borders removed, or the scheme dramatically simplified. There are too many colours, and I find it hard to tell some of them apart. I have learned to ignore them, but it's one of the things that initially put me off 4e, although I didn't initially realise that was what constantly confusing me.

I think the switching to bicolor was to make the books seem lass 'flat', now the B&W books we're getting now are actually in Greyscale so they don't look as bad, but the bicolor books seem to have more character or seem to be more alive.

Or is you problem with the colors that get chosen? Because that can make a real difference, I can still remember how bad the lighting was in those toilets with glossy back tiles in Uni.

[simply Nathan]

One of the things that always bugged me about the way the Basic Set was organized was how several socially-related abilities are gone over as both Advantages and Disadvantages in an introduction section rather than in the appropriate chapters proper; the places where the rules for the traits logically ought to be instead gives a page reference to a much earlier part of the book.