Telekinesis and Unarmed Combat Skills

[warhorse11h]

The telekinesis spell description in ITL states, "A wizard may do anything with TK that he could do if his own body were there."

The wording suggests, to me, that a character with Unarmed Combat skills would be able to use some of those abilities telekinetically, at least the punch and kick damage bonuses.

Thoughts anyone?

[hcobb]

Telekinesis: "Lets wizard move objects by the force of his mind"

If you want "A telekinetic blow" then see Magic Fist.

2d Magic Fist averages 3.5 points with missile weapon adjustment.

A wizard with UC III would be around 1d-1 for 2.5 points with the thrown weapons adjustment.

[warhorse11h]

The full text of the spell reads, "Lets wizard move objects by the force of his mind. Objects may be picked up, thrown, etc. A wizard may do anything with TK that he could do if his own body were there. However, the object manipulated must be where he can see it. (Exception: A wizard with TK could use it to untie himself, even if he were in the dark or his hands were tied behind him.) For purposes of governing TK, the GM should assume that the wizard has one “invisible body” which he may place and use anywhere he can see or touch. It is possible to use a weapon with this spell – but any weapon controlled telekinetically is at an extra -4 DX. Cost: 2 ST per turn."

Note that objects may be picked up and thrown, etc. and that a wizard can do anything that he could do if his own body were there. The object manipulated must be where he can see it. Also, the GM should assume the wizard has one "invisible body" which he may place and use anywhere he can see or touch.

Again, the inference seems to be that the wizard could use his UC talents through his telekinesis as the object to be manipulated would be his opponent's head or perhaps his solar plexus.

The question of damage done by that TK use is going to be dependent on the ST of the wizard in question not an arbitrary decision as to what a wizard's ST should be.

[Skarg]

A really good question!

It's a case where the rules may seem clear enough when reading them, but during play, all sorts of details may require GM rulings.

(As such, it's a matter of detailed rules opinion, and might make sense to move to the House Rules sub-forum.)


I think it would be reasonable for the GM to rule that since the invisible body has the wizard's DX, it probably has the wizard's ST and physical talents, too, since there is no specified other ST to use.

So yeah I would think Unarmed Combat throws would be allowed (the object is the victim's body, as you say).

I'm not as clear what my ruling would be about doing attacks for damage without using an object. I could see ruling either way, depending on what additional rationale I chose to invent to rationalize my rulings. Also, kicks? Nerve strikes? Multi-opponent attacks?

Also the -4 for telekinetic weapons confuses me a bit:
* Is that added to a penalty for a wizard not having a weapon talent for the weapon?
* Would that mean non-weapon attacks (such as UC attacks, if allowed) should also be at -4, or not?

And does the invisible body have a location an MA/action limit like a normal figure? If so, does it have the Wizard's unarmored/unencumbered MA? Does the Running talent raise it? What if the wizard is a race that has a high MA (Elf, Centaur, something that flies...)?

Can the invisible body try to tackle people into normal HTH combat? (In theory, I'd think so, but I'm not sure I'd want to use the HTH initiation system for it.) Pinning?

Does a multi-hex wizard get a multi-hex body? Can it Push and Trample smaller figures?

If it brandishes a weapon, does it engage foes?

Does it need to take a turn to ready a weapon before attacking with it?

Can Mage Sight see the TK body?

Can TK bodies intercept enemy TK bodies?

Can friendly TK bodies operate from the same hex as others?

[hcobb]

What is the target of the thrown spell?

[TippetsTX]

I wonder if we're taking the 'TK body' idea too literally here. I don't think that Telekinesis actually creates an invisible duplicate of the character's body that they can manipulate with the same degree of control.

Can you grab and throw an opponent using TK? Probably, but not with the power and finesse that comes with the UC talents.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I wonder if we're taking the 'TK body' idea too literally here.

If so, "TK Body" would be a neat spell; probably a higher IQ than plain TK.

[warhorse11h]

Since I did the initial post on this topic, I have continued to think about the idea more. While I still think it might be possible to do the kick and punch damage and possibly some other of the UC skills, there are still difficulties.

The spell description is not clear. The language of the spell leads one to believe that the caster can only place the spell on himself. Otherwise, I think it would have said, "Allows the subject of the spell to move objects with the force of his mind" or some such. If it really is only castable on oneself, it kinda screams that it should be a special spell not a thrown spell as casting it on yourself the DX penalty is 0 and it doesn't mention any DX modifiers for distance in the spell other than the (T) classification.

The reference to an extra -4DX wielding a weapon is also is not clear. Is it referring indirectly to the DX penalty for not having the talent or perhaps the -1DX per hex of distance from the wielder of the spell to where he is using the telekinesis. If not, the spell does not indicate any DX penalty for distance that is a constant of any other spell with distant effects.

Trying to think of how this would look in real life leads me to believe that it would be difficult to do any of this mentally, particularly wielding a weapon, as your viewpoint would alter what the weapon would do, even if you had the talent, the angles would all be wrong and your perception and coordination would be affected.

I think I would and will allow the use of the UC talents telekinetically, but using the thrown spell DX modifier for the distance from the caster to the target. Just to reflect the difficulty of doing it.

The spell as written though, leaves a lot of room for individual interpretation and has a lot of missing pieces.

[hcobb]

I think it's clear that you throw the spell on the object you're going to move, such as the rope binding your hands.

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by hcobb

I think it's clear that you throw the spell on the object you're going to move, such as the rope binding your hands.

Having read again the spell description, you are probably correct. It appears to be the only clear cut interpretation of the spell. You cast is on the object you wish to affect and state the affect you want and cast the spell.

I guess I couldn't see the forest for the oak trees in the way.

And no, you wouldn't be able to use UC abilities or anything else through it.