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Old 01-31-2011, 03:25 PM   #1
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Default [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

The system of Path/Book magic is a decent fit for a secret magic campaign emulating various magical traditions which people in the real world believed (or still believe) offered mystical powers.

In GURPS Thaumatology there are various flavourful options under Mandatory and Significant Modifiers (p. 82) that are particularly suitable for emulating the Western Hermetic tradition of the Cabal. The high bonuses that can be accumulated by leveraging Decanic Correspondance, Decanic Nature, Zodiacal Correspondences and Planetary Correspondences can make magic viable in a Low Mana or even Very Low Mana worlds.

The problem is, the decans and the specific correspondances associated with them are a very Hermetic idea. Magical traditions based on Zoroastrian concepts, Jewish (as opposed to Hermetic) Kabbalah or Nordic rune magic would lose a lot of their flavour if the same Decans governed their use.

On the other hand, if the only magical tradition that could accumulate these large bonuses was the Hermetic one, that would clearly be the only viable tradition in the setting. Any magical system that is affected by the penalties for Low Mana and Very Low Mana absolutely requires some way to accumulate bonuses up to +15 or more if it is going to be worth spending points on.

Clearly, I need a list of similar modifiers that is more suited to each individual magical tradition.

I'm going to have to make up such a list for the Zoroastrian tradition and Kabbalah, which will both be Path-based on my setting. I also, probably, need one for voudon. It would not hurt to have one for Catholic mysticism, probably influenced by the Hermetic one, but with individual saints instead of decans.

What do I need from the forumites?

First, does anyone have links to online resources on the Sephiroth and what kind of places, materials, colors, metals, stones, plants, creatures, scents, body parts and tools might be associated with each sephirah? Also, if anyone has actually featured Kabbalah in their campaigns, does anyone have insights of their own about this?

Second, the same question, but about the six Amesha Spenta of Zoroastrianism. What are the associations* with each of them? Also, should I complicate things by having all six Amesha Spentas and additionally, Ahura Mazda himself, Mithra, Apam Napat and enough yazatas to make up 12 or 19 fields? This would entail having subordinate fields, so that there would be, for example, one Amesha Spenta with dominion over wholeness, health and water and under that, perhaps, a specific water dominion.

Third, what bonuses are appropriate for Kabbalah and Zoroastrian magic? Sympathy bonuses would obviously fit Kabbalah, but do they fit Zoroastrian magic? What about Contagion? True Names?

Sacrifices fit Zoroastrian magic, but does anyone know if Kabbalah has a concept of ritual sacrifice? Or would that be contrary to the tradition?

*That is to say, what gives bonuses on castings that are regulated by each of them. I've already figured out which rituals fit under each.

Edit: I'm still trying for the same feel, but am using the Ritual Path Magic system for campaigns set in 2018 and later. I'm looking for suggestions on how best to maintain a similar feel as I'm trying for in this thread with RPM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

Well, virtually all magical traditions that I've come across include something roughly analogous to the Laws of Magic from Thaumatology, so that can be used to close the gap a little. The idea of huge tables of correspondence are (AFAIK) a fairly uniquely Hermetic concept -- Traditional (Jewish) Kabbalah doesn't include anything quite like Decanic Correspondence. The closest that I can think of (not being a dedicated Kabbalist myself) is their use of gematria to find "numerological" correspondences between words with the same numerical value (each Hebrew letter has a corresponding number, and so each word has a value made up of adding all the letters up). Hermetic magic occasionally uses the same techniques.

Voudon magic is more about calling down the Lwa/Loa to "ride" the magician, in order to gain supernatural powers. Again, Hermetic magic uses many of the same techniques, in this case called "Invocation" (to "call within").

I don't know much of anything about Zoroastrian mysticism, so I won't be much help there.

All of that might not help your problem much, though ... Western Hermetic magic has absorbed basically everything it could find in other traditions, while "orthodox" mystical traditions (those specifically related to non-occult religion) tend to perpetuate only a handful of practices. In that light, it makes sense to me that a syncretic tradition (like Hermeticism) would have more working techniques, and thus more potential bonuses.

EDIT: Also of note is that, by default, Mana Level doesn't affect Path/Book magic. The original Decanic/Hermetic magic system in GURPS Cabal was based on normal spells-as-skills magic. You could easily institute something similar for Path/Book magic (all casting rolls get a -5 or -10, etc), or use the options under Path/Book Magery (Thaum p. 123) to make magic possible but hard for non-mages, etc.

Last edited by CousinX; 01-31-2011 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
EDIT: Also of note is that, by default, Mana Level doesn't affect Path/Book magic. The original Decanic/Hermetic magic system in GURPS Cabal was based on normal spells-as-skills magic. You could easily institute something similar for Path/Book magic (all casting rolls get a -5 or -10, etc), or use the options under Path/Book Magery (Thaum p. 123) to make magic possible but hard for non-mages, etc.
Mana levels affecting Path/Book magic is an option given in Thaumatology and applies in my setting. Non-mages can use Path/Book magic at a basic -6.

In addition, using 'mundane' languages to conduct magical rituals is at a hefty penalty. This penalty is -5 for widespread languages used in daily life by millions and gradually lessens down to 0 for such 'standard' magical languages as Coptic, Latin, Koine Greek, Old Norse or Gaelic. Carribean creole is -2, for reference.

More esoteric languages grant bonuses of +1 (Attic Greek, Biblical Aramaic, Biblical Hebrew, Demotic Egyptian, Langage), +2 (Ancient Aramaic, Avestan, Classical Sanskrit, Middle Egyptian) and even +3 (Akkadian, Archaic Egyptian, Gathic, Sumerian, Vedic Sanskrit).

Of course, the language must fit the tradition being learnt and the adept may be limited to the language in which the rituals are inscribed. Using a language you know at less than Native level can be dangerous and requires an IQ or Linguistics check before you can perform the ritual, with a -1 for Accented and -3 for Broken level. Lack of Cultural Familiarity gives a further -3 to this check. Failure causes the spell to fail, with or without catastrophic results.

Of course, the fact that proper pronounciation of the most ancient languages is not often known and Cultural Familiarities with long-lost societies are not easily available means that the higher bonuses are rarely claimed. Few people known the Spoken form of dead languages at more than Broken and almost none at above Accented. On the other hand, the IQ or Linguistic roll can make use of supporting skills such as Anthropology, an appropriate History speciality, an appropriate Literature speciality or an appropriate Theology speciality.

Even more occult languages exist in the setting, theorised to have been the 'original' languages of magic or at least of each tradition. These appear to include a form of proto-Sumerian and probably others. These grant up to +5 to the ritual roll, but knowing them at Native level might require an Unusual Background. Failures using those languages are even more dangerous than regular failures.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

For Kabbalah you might consider allowing Symbol Drawing and to give a bonus.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

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For Kabbalah you might consider allowing Symbol Drawing and to give a bonus.
Yeah, I do that.

Unfortunately, that only results in +1 or +2, a far cry from the +15 that decanic correspondances and suchlike can amass. I'm also considering a Mathematics (Gematria) skill that would give the same bonus as Symbol Drawing and could be combined with it.

Do you know if sacrifices are inappropriate for Kabbalah?
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Yeah, I do that.

Unfortunately, that only results in +1 or +2, a far cry from the +15 that decanic correspondances and suchlike can amass. I'm also considering a Mathematics (Gematria) skill that would give the same bonus as Symbol Drawing and could be combined with it.
Mathematics is easier than Ritual Magic; if you make that the base skill for Kabbalah it gets an effective +1 over other traditions. Also Kabbalah is a meditative tradition. You could give Meditation a significant roll, or even make it an energy gathering tradition instead of effect shaping and allow Kabbalists to gather energy by mediation. The Sephiroth are really more like mystical mental states achieved by devotional mediation than anything else. A successful Meditation roll could allow a Kabbalist a huge bonus to specific effects by entering into the correct Sephiroth.

Another thing to consider is that Hermetic magic has as many negative magical influences as positive. You could emphasize the penalties for the Decanic tradition and make sure other traditions suffer less penalties in general.

Quote:
Do you know if sacrifices are inappropriate for Kabbalah?
Probably. It's something that's associated with older Jewish mysticism. Technically, Jews believe that without the Temple true sacrifice is impossible.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

Icelander, let me ask this ... are you more concerned about game balance between the traditions, or authenticity to real-world beliefs? There are a lot things that will look very different if occult traditions need all to be equally supernaturally effective in terms of what kinds of bonuses they can claim, and you might end up having to artificially inject or withhold certain bonuses from certain traditions.

One possibility is to give different traditions different kinds of benefits, besides spell-casting. Voudon practitioners might have "alternate forms" corresponding to the lwa that they can invoke, with appropriate trait boosts and supernatural abilities.

Another question, does magic work along a set of constant metaphysics, or does it work differently for each tradition -- is it based on a sort of "occult science," that works the same for all casters, or on the particular beliefs of a particular caster? If it operates according to a set of constant, underlying laws, then all of the modifiers are applicable to any magic -- it's just a question of who knows about them.

One thought that occurred to me is that it seems like you're mostly trying to overcome the brutal penalties that you've set. I think if you reduced those, it would be less of an issue to come up with a lot of special modifiers.

A few more random thoughts...


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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
It would not hurt to have one for Catholic mysticism, probably influenced by the Hermetic one, but with individual saints instead of decans.
The split between "Hermetic Magic" and "Christian Magic" is arguably not very old. Post-Golden Dawn Hermeticism is quite distinct from Christianity, and Thelema even moreso, but up until the Church lost the power to burn heretics, most Hermetic magic was practiced as Christian magic. Agrippa, Dee, and even the Rosicrucians were all nominally Christian mages.

Catholic mysticism is something quite different, more akin to Divine Powers than to Thaumatology. I wouldn't call it a formal magical tradition, but a collection of mystically-inclined individuals.


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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
First, does anyone have links to online resources on the Sephiroth and what kind of places, materials, colors, metals, stones, plants, creatures, scents, body parts and tools might be associated with each sephirah? Also, if anyone has actually featured Kabbalah in their campaigns, does anyone have insights of their own about this?
The only such resources I know of are Hermetic/Thelemic ... Crowley's Liber 777 is the definitive Post-Golden Dawn reference. Orthodox Kabbalists have no such correspondences -- that whole idea originated with Christian mystics who wanted to syncretize Kabbalism into their own framework.


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Third, what bonuses are appropriate for Kabbalah and Zoroastrian magic? Sympathy bonuses would obviously fit Kabbalah, but do they fit Zoroastrian magic? What about Contagion? True Names?
True Names are certainly appropriate to Kabbalism ... in fact, that might be a good (if drastically oversimplified) big-picture understanding of Kabbalah: "Knowing the True Names of Things."

I can't think of any examples of Contagion in purely Kabbalistic magic, but then Contagion is about casting spells on someone/something, and Kabbalistic magic tends to be internal -- seeking unity with God, rather than hexing your enemies or calling up a spirit.


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*That is to say, what gives bonuses on castings that are regulated by each of them. I've already figured out which rituals fit under each.
Would you mind posting them? I haven't gone through and assigned Paths/Books/Rituals to traditions yet, but I will need to do so soon for an upcoming campaign, so I'd be interested to see what you've done.

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Old 02-01-2011, 02:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

(sorry to add no value to your conversation, but I'm finding it all hellishly interesting. I can see I'm going to have to get into the Thaumatology stuff.) Nice thread people - keep it up! (... and I have a date with wikipedia...)
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
What do I need from the forumites?
For some kind of Norse rune magic system, how about associating each kind of magic with one of those Norse gods that had a day named after him? Of course that would create a frequently rotating cycle, which I do not consider ideal from a game design point of view, but it's just about all I can think of, for Norse magic bonuses.

Also, I seem to recall once coming across a statement that the Norse week had only 5 days, so there'd be no washing day or sun day apparently, but still one day named after the moon, and then of course Tyr, Odin, Thor, and Frej and/or Freja.

I haven't been able to confirm this piece of information with my low Research skill, though, but it'd be interesting if the Norse week cycle was out of synch with the Judeochristian week cycle, from a game design point of view (even if the weekdays give no bonuses to spell magic based on Judeochristain principles, Christian religious powers might still work better on Sundays; that's the case in my Ärth setting, and IIRC also in Ars Magica's Mythic Europe).
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Thaumatology] Real world magical traditions

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
For some kind of Norse rune magic system, how about associating each kind of magic with one of those Norse gods that had a day named after him? Of course that would create a frequently rotating cycle, which I do not consider ideal from a game design point of view, but it's just about all I can think of, for Norse magic bonuses.
I'm prioritising magic system design according to how much they affect the PCs and how much interest the players show in learning about them.

So far, we have a Harvard professor of religious anthropology who has spent the past year in the Vatican learning about magic being real.* Given his background as a kabbalistical scholar and rabbi's son, a Jesuit** who studies Kabbalah ritual magic offered to instruct him in using such magic to protect himself. With this PC's expertise in Zoroastrian mythology and ritualism, though, he has been experimenting on his own with such magic.

So I need those systems before I need others, given that one PC can already use them. I've featured the Sumerian blood magic in a previous 'season' and a surviving antagonist is a master of it. With sacrifices and various other means, he can actually use such magic to kill or even summon powerful demons in corporeal form.

*After having an experience which predisposed him to believe this.
**This Jesuit believes that 'magic' is merely natural forces that have not yet been incorporated into our scientific framework. As such, he sees all ritual traditions as incomplete attempts to approximate real natural laws that are as yet unknown. He finds that Kabbalah works better for him than the Hermetic system or its even more simplified 'Catholic' counterpart. To him, ritual magic is a tool, no more good or evil in nature than a hammer or wrench.


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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
I haven't been able to confirm this piece of information with my low Research skill, though, but it'd be interesting if the Norse week cycle was out of synch with the Judeochristian week cycle, from a game design point of view (even if the weekdays give no bonuses to spell magic based on Judeochristain principles, Christian religious powers might still work better on Sundays; that's the case in my Ärth setting, and IIRC also in Ars Magica's Mythic Europe).
No magic in the setting can be explicitly identified as being granted by divine powers.

Some (heretical) Christian thinkers have theorised that there are three kinds of spirit beings, the elohim, the djinn/loa and the Annunaki. These are, respectively, good, neutral and evil. From them come all forms of spirit magic.

There are also, according to these theories, three kinds of physical ultraterrestials. There are the fey, who are neutral, the Builders (Egypt and other ancient civilisations such as pre-Homeric Greek, also Atlantis) who are good, and an unknown race of evil beings who live in secret among humans.

All magic is then shoehorned into one of these categories and explained as having come from one of these three races or three types of spirits.

While the idea that angels and God are merely one part of a system of triads is considered heretical, some elements of this worldview are often used as rationalisations by religious people who acknowledge magic. In their mind, magic which derives from the elohim is holy and magic which comes from the Builders is essentially permissable, despite the pagan elements*. Views on 'neutral' magic differ, some seeing it as merely a tool, but some considering it 'wordly' and thus not appropriate for men of faith.

Evil magic is nearly universally condemned.

*The Builders are considered 'Righteous Pagans'.
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