Laws of Magic and the US Law - Page 3

dcarson · 10-02-2018, 03:27 PM

Not a lawyer but citizen's arrest varies by state like almost every law in the US. Some states don't have it. In ones that do you usually can only arrest for misdemeanors if they happened in front of you. Felonies you can track them down but from wikipedia

Quote:

In the case of felonies, a private person may make an arrest for a felony occurring outside their presence but the rule is that a felony must have, in fact, been committed. For example, imagine a suspect has been seen on surveillance video vandalizing a building to the extent that the arrestor believes it rises to a felony due to the damage. If they find the suspect and make the arrest but it later turns out that it was misdemeanor damage, the arrestor is liable for false arrest because a felony had not, in fact, been committed.

which will cause problems for people that think magic itself is a crime but what happened was not a felony.

Phantasm · 10-02-2018, 03:50 PM

I should also note that if the local police are told "something bad may happen to" the guy suspected of being a sorcerer, they may take that as a possible death threat against the sorcerer (itself a felony in many jurisdictions) and investigate the neighbors to see who would take the law into their own hands to attack the local kook for no reason besides fear. (Except in really draconian jurisdictions, being eccentric is not a crime.)

Since the police are there to protect, they'll be protecting the sorcerer until such time as he commits a crime himself, and even then they'll be obligated to arrest him and let the court system sort out the legal mess; the officer would be called as a witness in the trial, if it happens (I can see a lot of stuff getting tossed out for lack of evidence, particularly early on).

AlexanderHowl · 10-02-2018, 04:08 PM

Depending on the type of magic, many people might not believe even after people went public. In the case of Path/Book magic, most of the rituals are so subtle that their effects could reasonably be judged luck or serendipity. Even standard magic is not terribly blatant if you avoid attack spells and have a high enough skill.

Speaking of standard magic, most of the attack spells are relatively useless, as contemporary firearms and explosives deal damage faster than spells can be cast. Some of the defensive spells are good, but they usually require high levels of skill to maintain without exhausting the mage. On another note, the cost of enchanting would be much higher in a TL8 society because people make more money.

copeab · 10-02-2018, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Imagine the problems caused by a mage using Reverse Missile while committing a crime spree? How many cops would end up shooting themselves when they react to the mage coming out of their hideout guns blazing?

I remember the first time a mage used this spell in my cyberfantasy campaign against security guards with automatic weapons.

The rest of the party sat there in awed silence ...

Culture20 · 10-02-2018, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Different US states might do any of these things. Since magic isn't mentioned in the constitution, it presumably defaults to being a state-level issue. An amendment to make it a federal issue would likely bog down in lawsuits.

Interstate Commerce, in some fashion. Just need one nose under the tent...

Tenex · 10-02-2018, 08:03 PM

This is kind of a tough subject because you can go as deep as you want in each particular specialty of law. (Congrats to the OP, you may have started one of these hundred+ page threads). Confining myself to the law of deadly force, I offer these thoughts.

As a basic reference on normal deadly force, https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Self-.../dp/B071ZQTB4G, does an excellent job of summarizing the law AND real world physical factors involved in this. The fact that it is over 400 pages long demonstrates the need for some superficiality here.

Generally speaking, in the US, one is allowed to use deadly force against someone if they believe that person poses an imminent risk of death or severe bodily injury to someone. This has been expanded somewhat with things like the Castle Doctrine and restricted somewhat by some police department’s internal policies imposed on their officers. However, using the general standard, here are some notable problems.

Is a Lightning bolt deadly force as a gun? Is Shocking Touch equal to a taser? How will variable strength magical attacks be deemed deadly or non-deadly force? How will a non-mage jury or judge be educated on this variable strength nature of magical spells? Nuanced scenarios aside, you generally can’t shoot someone for threatening you with pepper spray. How is a non-mage to know the relative lethality of the spell they are facing?

Much of the political drama around Black Lives Matter revolved around the fact that many people don’t believe you can legally shoot an unarmed man. This is patently not the case, but details matter. Depending on the perceived facts by a victim or cop, deadly force may be justified regardless of whether an aggressor is actually armed. Adding magic to the mix, especially when magic is not widely understood, complicates things. Juries have to be educated on the physical realities of action vs. reaction, cover and concealment, terminal ballistics, defects in human perception, etc. They need this education even in the modern world where physics and biology are “provable” and “recognized”. This will be problematic where magic is concerned.

How will a wizard be determined to be a threat? How can non-mage judges and juries ever be expected to make a rational distinction between Shocking Touch and Lightning? One being a missile spell and one being a melee spell they pose different threats in different situations. How can a non-mage be expected to differentiate what spell is being cast? Further complicating this is the fact that with increased skill, the outward indicators of spell casting disappear. What are cops and citizens expected to do when some mages can cast Lightning at a level that is instant death for the average normal human without any outward indicators?

How will furtive movements be interpreted in a world of deadly magic castable with varying levels of outward indicators? For example, if the police have reliable information that a murderer carries a pistol in the small of his back and they then confront this known murderer and the murderer refuses to follow their commands and reaches for the small of his back, the police don’t need to wait to see the gun. They can shoot him for reaching behind his back. This is well settled law. What will constitute a furtive movement with regard to spellcasting?

I apologize for most of this being posed in the form of questions, but I don’t there are stock answers for a lot of this. Depending on the exact fact patterns involved there will be a multitude of conflicting case law and policy emerging across all the states, federal government and certainly between countries

Tenex · 10-02-2018, 08:07 PM

Mind control, criminal culpability and the courtroom:

This will pose enormous problems. To hold someone accountable for a crime you need an act and a culpable mental state. What happens when someone commits a crime under magical control of a wizard? How will they prove it for their defense? What happens if someone who wasn’t under mental control of a wizard says they were? How will the police disprove that? GMs will have to come up with a rule for what residue magic leaves behind. Perhaps some sort of magical evidence crime scene tech is needed to collect mana residue or something. New spells will definitely be necessary here.

Polygraphs aren’t allowed as evidence in court. How will magical spells be viewed? While there are problems with polygraphs, at least the science of what is happening is well-established. It’s just the usefulness of the results that is in dispute. How can non-mages even begin to assess the validity of a magical spell? How do they know a Compel Truth spell has even been cast, and if it has, how can a judge/jury know what the answer is without taking a wizard at his word?

All sorts of scientific proof that was entered into evidence in the past has since been debunked. Courts are skeptical of unsettled science. There will be a corresponding reluctance to rely on magic in the courtroom, especially since it is even less understood and less transparent to a non-mage. But to deal with a magical world, some magic will be necessary, for example a magical evidence residue team as mentioned above. This may lead to widespread distrust of the court system. One highly publicized instance of a witness being subject to a Compel Lies spell will significantly degrade trust in the courts.

At best, judges and lawyers will treat wizards as expert witnesses in the field of magic. However, normal expert witnesses are validated by academic degrees and relatively understandable real world experience. It will be next to impossible for non-mages to assess the credibility of a wizard. Certainly judges and lawyers will not subordinate their roles in the court system to a few wizards purportedly casting Compel Truth.

mr beer · 10-02-2018, 08:12 PM

If magic enters with the world with a bodycount as described, I imagine that the government will seek to leverage anti-terrorism legislation in order to take a fairly free and easy approach to dealing with recalcitrant wizards.

Tenex · 10-02-2018, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

In the US at least, everything is a state issue by default, unless the power is specifically delegated to the Federal government or prohibited to both the Federal and state governments. That said, Congress abuses their authority to regulate commerce between the states to regulate just about anything, and in an emergency, Congress tends to act and then let the lawsuits sort out whether the new law will stand.

But as it stands, the Federal government doesn't have any authority to legislate on magic on its own, and can only incidentally legislate on magic on issues where the Federal government already has authority.

Well yeah, if you are one of those Originalists. :)

But the EPA is a thing now. I suspect the regulation of mana and magic would be just as accepted as the regulation of the environment. In fact, depending on how the government perceived magic to work, it might be placed under control of the EPA and they might start issuing administrative edicts rather quickly.

a humble lich · 10-02-2018, 09:09 PM

If the body count is as high as you say initially, Congress/the President may pass laws/executive orders regulating magic without giving much thought to the constitutionality and let the courts figure it out. On the other hand, it is often difficult for Congress to do anything quickly.

There will also be a big issue with religion and religious liberties, especially if, like Shadowrun, there are magical traditions which spring out of existing religious beliefs. I can see some religious groups saying all witchcraft is from Satan, other groups who feel magic is part of their holy practices, and other groups who view it as a tool just like technology.

10-02-2018, 03:50 PM	#22
Phantasm Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the road again...	Re: Laws of Magic and the US Law I should also note that if the local police are told "something bad may happen to" the guy suspected of being a sorcerer, they may take that as a possible death threat against the sorcerer (itself a felony in many jurisdictions) and investigate the neighbors to see who would take the law into their own hands to attack the local kook for no reason besides fear. (Except in really draconian jurisdictions, being eccentric is not a crime.) Since the police are there to protect, they'll be protecting the sorcerer until such time as he commits a crime himself, and even then they'll be obligated to arrest him and let the court system sort out the legal mess; the officer would be called as a witness in the trial, if it happens (I can see a lot of stuff getting tossed out for lack of evidence, particularly early on). __________________ "Life ... is an Oreo cookie." - J'onn J'onzz, 1991 "But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!" The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation. Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting Last edited by Phantasm; 10-02-2018 at 03:54 PM.

10-02-2018, 04:08 PM	#23
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Laws of Magic and the US Law Depending on the type of magic, many people might not believe even after people went public. In the case of Path/Book magic, most of the rituals are so subtle that their effects could reasonably be judged luck or serendipity. Even standard magic is not terribly blatant if you avoid attack spells and have a high enough skill. Speaking of standard magic, most of the attack spells are relatively useless, as contemporary firearms and explosives deal damage faster than spells can be cast. Some of the defensive spells are good, but they usually require high levels of skill to maintain without exhausting the mage. On another note, the cost of enchanting would be much higher in a TL8 society because people make more money.

10-02-2018, 08:03 PM	#26
Tenex Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Laws of Magic and the US Law This is kind of a tough subject because you can go as deep as you want in each particular specialty of law. (Congrats to the OP, you may have started one of these hundred+ page threads). Confining myself to the law of deadly force, I offer these thoughts. As a basic reference on normal deadly force, https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Self-.../dp/B071ZQTB4G, does an excellent job of summarizing the law AND real world physical factors involved in this. The fact that it is over 400 pages long demonstrates the need for some superficiality here. Generally speaking, in the US, one is allowed to use deadly force against someone if they believe that person poses an imminent risk of death or severe bodily injury to someone. This has been expanded somewhat with things like the Castle Doctrine and restricted somewhat by some police department’s internal policies imposed on their officers. However, using the general standard, here are some notable problems. Is a Lightning bolt deadly force as a gun? Is Shocking Touch equal to a taser? How will variable strength magical attacks be deemed deadly or non-deadly force? How will a non-mage jury or judge be educated on this variable strength nature of magical spells? Nuanced scenarios aside, you generally can’t shoot someone for threatening you with pepper spray. How is a non-mage to know the relative lethality of the spell they are facing? Much of the political drama around Black Lives Matter revolved around the fact that many people don’t believe you can legally shoot an unarmed man. This is patently not the case, but details matter. Depending on the perceived facts by a victim or cop, deadly force may be justified regardless of whether an aggressor is actually armed. Adding magic to the mix, especially when magic is not widely understood, complicates things. Juries have to be educated on the physical realities of action vs. reaction, cover and concealment, terminal ballistics, defects in human perception, etc. They need this education even in the modern world where physics and biology are “provable” and “recognized”. This will be problematic where magic is concerned. How will a wizard be determined to be a threat? How can non-mage judges and juries ever be expected to make a rational distinction between Shocking Touch and Lightning? One being a missile spell and one being a melee spell they pose different threats in different situations. How can a non-mage be expected to differentiate what spell is being cast? Further complicating this is the fact that with increased skill, the outward indicators of spell casting disappear. What are cops and citizens expected to do when some mages can cast Lightning at a level that is instant death for the average normal human without any outward indicators? How will furtive movements be interpreted in a world of deadly magic castable with varying levels of outward indicators? For example, if the police have reliable information that a murderer carries a pistol in the small of his back and they then confront this known murderer and the murderer refuses to follow their commands and reaches for the small of his back, the police don’t need to wait to see the gun. They can shoot him for reaching behind his back. This is well settled law. What will constitute a furtive movement with regard to spellcasting? I apologize for most of this being posed in the form of questions, but I don’t there are stock answers for a lot of this. Depending on the exact fact patterns involved there will be a multitude of conflicting case law and policy emerging across all the states, federal government and certainly between countries

10-02-2018, 08:07 PM	#27
Tenex Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Laws of Magic and the US Law Mind control, criminal culpability and the courtroom: This will pose enormous problems. To hold someone accountable for a crime you need an act and a culpable mental state. What happens when someone commits a crime under magical control of a wizard? How will they prove it for their defense? What happens if someone who wasn’t under mental control of a wizard says they were? How will the police disprove that? GMs will have to come up with a rule for what residue magic leaves behind. Perhaps some sort of magical evidence crime scene tech is needed to collect mana residue or something. New spells will definitely be necessary here. Polygraphs aren’t allowed as evidence in court. How will magical spells be viewed? While there are problems with polygraphs, at least the science of what is happening is well-established. It’s just the usefulness of the results that is in dispute. How can non-mages even begin to assess the validity of a magical spell? How do they know a Compel Truth spell has even been cast, and if it has, how can a judge/jury know what the answer is without taking a wizard at his word? All sorts of scientific proof that was entered into evidence in the past has since been debunked. Courts are skeptical of unsettled science. There will be a corresponding reluctance to rely on magic in the courtroom, especially since it is even less understood and less transparent to a non-mage. But to deal with a magical world, some magic will be necessary, for example a magical evidence residue team as mentioned above. This may lead to widespread distrust of the court system. One highly publicized instance of a witness being subject to a Compel Lies spell will significantly degrade trust in the courts. At best, judges and lawyers will treat wizards as expert witnesses in the field of magic. However, normal expert witnesses are validated by academic degrees and relatively understandable real world experience. It will be next to impossible for non-mages to assess the credibility of a wizard. Certainly judges and lawyers will not subordinate their roles in the court system to a few wizards purportedly casting Compel Truth.

10-02-2018, 08:12 PM	#28
mr beer Join Date: Mar 2013	Re: Laws of Magic and the US Law If magic enters with the world with a bodycount as described, I imagine that the government will seek to leverage anti-terrorism legislation in order to take a fairly free and easy approach to dealing with recalcitrant wizards.

10-02-2018, 09:09 PM	#30
a humble lich Join Date: Jun 2017	Re: Laws of Magic and the US Law If the body count is as high as you say initially, Congress/the President may pass laws/executive orders regulating magic without giving much thought to the constitutionality and let the courts figure it out. On the other hand, it is often difficult for Congress to do anything quickly. There will also be a big issue with religion and religious liberties, especially if, like Shadowrun, there are magical traditions which spring out of existing religious beliefs. I can see some religious groups saying all witchcraft is from Satan, other groups who feel magic is part of their holy practices, and other groups who view it as a tool just like technology.