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Old 08-09-2010, 06:41 PM   #11
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Why is Defensive Grip not a Technique in Martial Arts?

Given your options, I'd do this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I could either say that Defensive Grip is nominally an unimprovable Technique, like Judo Throw, and require a Technique Mastery Perk to allow it to be raised to the level of the prerequisite skill.
...and make it a Hard technique. So masters of the style - or at least folks with 10+ points in the style - can invest in a perk and then throw 3 points at being better at the technique. That's 4 points to by off the penalty, instead of spending 4 points on +1 skill overall. It's a good tradeoff if you intend to fight that way often, and a terrible one if you prefer to fight "properly" with one hand on the weapon. I think that makes it fair. An "Average" technique makes it a better deal than +1 skill, so you lose that trade off. That puts me over the edge for it as a Hard technique.
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why is Defensive Grip not a Technique in Martial Arts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
Given your options, I'd do this:



...and make it a Hard technique. So masters of the style - or at least folks with 10+ points in the style - can invest in a perk and then throw 3 points at being better at the technique. That's 4 points to by off the penalty, instead of spending 4 points on +1 skill overall. It's a good tradeoff if you intend to fight that way often, and a terrible one if you prefer to fight "properly" with one hand on the weapon. I think that makes it fair. An "Average" technique makes it a better deal than +1 skill, so you lose that trade off. That puts me over the edge for it as a Hard technique.
Thanks. That's pretty cool.

Do you think I could also apply this method to late era arming sword styles, which emphasised the Defensive Grip, or should I just add Two-Handed Sword skill to those styles (as the grip is probably large enough to allow a second hand)?
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why is Defensive Grip not a Technique in Martial Arts?

Here is the style I was wondering about it for, by the way. Does anyone have any comments about it? Something wrong? Something missing?

Melvaunt Sabreplay

3 points


Melvaunt is a city of smiths, but it is also a city of swords. Swordsmanship is revered there, with every single form of fencing being practised somewhere. One of the local forms is notable for being derived from the fighting style of the mounted barbarians of the Ride. It is a duelling style which uses a heavy sabre, just light enough to be usable with a fencing stance, and bouts are often fought on horseback.

The sabre is used in powerful slashes, aimed to tire and disorient the foe. A solid defence is reduced with Beats. The pace is relentless and punishing, with almost no Defensive Attacks and a Committed Attack every time there is an opening. The free hand, when it is not used to hold the reins, is often placed on the hilt in a Defensive Grip to add power to swings or help defend against a powerful cut in a Cross Parry. Another tactic is to make a Committed Attack in a Defensive Grip and release the off-hand with Grip Mastery to have it available to parry.

Rapid Strikes using Flurry of Blows are a signature move, even if the attacks have to be Telegraphic to have a chance of connecting. After a particularly predictable series of blows, the stylist will often try to score with Deceptive Attacks, either with a swift change-up or just sheer attack speed.

Close range is avoided, with control of the distance between the fencers being considered a very important skill. This carries over into the mounted form, where the stylists will battle for position and try to keep their own strong hand in easy striking range while putting the horses between the opponent’s strong hand and himself.

When the horses pass each other, a conservative stylist will attempt to get out of striking range by sheer speed, but a daring one might risk a swing behind him, a Back Strike that leaves him painfully exposed if it fails. As a result, it is often done as a last-ditch Committed Attack or All-Out Attack, with the fencer figuring that if it does not work, he would lose anyway.

Duels are often to the first blood and it is not uncommon for stylists to fight simply for pride or amusement, but there is no Sport version of the style, as all training and friendly competition is done with steel and without special protective wear (warriors will sometimes wear their normal armour, though).

Skills: Riding (Horse); Saber.
Techniques: Back Strike (Saber); Beat; Cavalry Training; Combat Riding; Counterattack; Defensive Grip; Disarming; Feint; Retain Weapon; Targeted Attack (Saber Swing/Arm); Targeted Attack (Saber Swing/Face); Targeted Attack (Saber Swing/Neck); Targeted Attack (Saber Swing/Skull).
Cinematic Skills: Kiai; Power Blow.
Cinematic Techniques: Timed Defence; Whirlwind Attack (Saber).
Perks: Focused Fury; Grip Mastery (Saber); Technique Mastery (Beat); Technique Mastery (Defensive Grip); Unarmed Parry (Saber).


Optional Traits
Secondary Attributes: Increased FP.
Advantages: Animal Empathy; Animal Friend; Combat Reflexes; Enhanced Parry; Fit or Very Fit.
Disadvantages: Code of Honour (Gentleman’s); Enemy; Overconfidence.
Skills: Animal Handling; Brawling; Broadsword; Fast-Draw (Knife or Sword); Games (Melvaunt Sabreplay); Knife; Shield (Buckler or Shield); Shortsword.
Techniques: Hammer Fist; Hands-Free Riding; Quick Mount; Roll with Blow*; All armed techniques in style with Broadsword.
Perks: Armour Familiarity (Saber); Mobile Block (Buckler or Shield); Mobile Parry (Broadsword); Off-Hand Weapon Training; Quick-Swap (Saber); Sure-Footed (Uneven).
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Old 08-10-2010, 07:27 AM   #14
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Why is Defensive Grip not a Technique in Martial Arts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Do you think I could also apply this method to late era arming sword styles, which emphasised the Defensive Grip, or should I just add Two-Handed Sword skill to those styles (as the grip is probably large enough to allow a second hand)?
If the sword is big enough that anyone could reasonably use it without a problem with two hands, I'd just go with Two-Handed Sword. If it's a penalized use of a smaller weapon, I'd go with the perk-and-technique solution you're considering.
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Why is Defensive Grip not a Technique in Martial Arts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
If the sword is big enough that anyone could reasonably use it without a problem with two hands, I'd just go with Two-Handed Sword. If it's a penalized use of a smaller weapon, I'd go with the perk-and-technique solution you're considering.
I'm thinking about styles used with arming swords* like these.

The hilt looks small enough so that it would potentially be awkward for the untrained to use two-handed, but the style Liam Neeson's character is teaching emphasises a two-handed Defensive Grip anyway.

*Link leads to 44 seconds of sparring from Kingdom of Heaven.
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Old 08-10-2010, 07:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: Why is Defensive Grip not a Technique in Martial Arts?

Here is an arming sword style which includes Two-Handed Sword, but has the Perk as an optional trait.

Cavalier Training

12 points


The armoured knights of Cormyr and Impiltur still exalt the mounted charge as the height of martial accomplishment. With their fine maille or plate harness as well as metal shields, few forces in the world can stand against them without powerful magic and at least for the Purple Dragon Knights of Cormyr, their own War Wizards are usually more than a match for any hostile sorcerers.

The style heavily emphasises the shock charge of heavy cavalry, with lance, sword or mace, as well as the ever-present shield. Horsemanship is extremely important, with the relationship between knight and horse being the subject of many myths and legends. While mounted, the knight uses momentum to carry himself out of melee, taking care not to be caught in the middle of infantry formations.

On foot, the knight will sometimes wield a lance in a two-handed stance, particularly if he faces pikemen or monsters larger than human size. Against men-at-arms he prefers to lead with the shield, which he’ll use for bashes and rushes as well as defence. If he loses his shield, he will often place he off-hand on the hilt of his sword in a Defensive Grip.

Attacks and Committed Attacks are common, as the knight trusts his armour to withstand any glancing blow and doesn’t feel the need for the tentative probing cuts for less armoured combatants. The knight will try to overpower and tire his foe by means of powerful strikes and whole body shield slams. Physical strength and conditioning is very important.

The grappling techniques in this style are very advanced, as the knight expects that when facing his equals, he have to get them off his feet before being able to penetrate their armour. Half-swording and finding a chink in the armour of a downed foe is a popular technique, as is a Reverse Grip Committed Attack to the Groin or Neck.

Skills: Axe/Mace; Brawling; Broadsword; Judo; Knife; Lance; Riding (Horse); Shield; Spear; Two-Handed Sword; Wrestling.
Techniques: Arm Lock; Armed Grapple; Beat; Bind Weapon (Shield); Cavalry Training; Choke Hold (Spear or Two-Handed Sword); Close Combat; Combat Riding; Counterattack; Disarm (Shield); Feint; Hammer Fist; Hands-Free Riding; Retain Weapon; Reverse Grip; Staying Seated; Sweep; Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Skull); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Swing/Face); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Swing/Neck); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Face);Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Groin); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Groin Chinks); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Neck); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Neck Chinks); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword Thrust/Vitals Chinks); Targeted Attack (Lance Thrust/Face); Targeted Attack (Lance Thrust/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Shield Bash/Face); Targeted Attack (Shield Bash/Groin); Targeted Attack (Spear Thrust/Face); Targeted Attack (Spear Thrust/Vitals); Trip.
Cinematic Skills: Flying Leap (Horse); Kiai; Light Walk (Horse); Mental Strength; Power Blow.
Cinematic Techniques: Dual-Weapon Attack (Broadsword and Shield); Dual-Weapon Defence; Timed Defence; Whirlwind Attack (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword).
Perks: Armour Familiarity; Focused Fury; Grip Mastery (Arming Sword or Longsword); Leading Shield; Melee Shieldfighting (Shield); Mobile Parry (Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword); Shield Wall Training; Shoves and Tackles (Lance or Shield); Skill Adaptation (Bind Weapon defaults to Shield); Special Exercises (Lifting ST +1).


Optional Traits
Attributes: Increased ST and HT.
Secondary Characteristics: Increased FP.
Advantages: Ally (Mount); Animal Empathy; Animal Friend; Combat Reflexes; Enhanced Block; Enhanced Parry; Fit or Very Fit; Lifting ST; Signature Gear (Mount); Status; Wealth.
Disadvantages: Code of Honour (Chivalry); Overconfidence; Sense of Duty (Family or Nation); Vow.
Skills: Animal Handling (Equines); Autohypnosis; Fast-Draw: Heraldry; Meditation; Parry Missile Weapons; Polearm; Savoir-Faire; Shield (Buckler); Shortsword; Staff; Two-Handed Axe/Mace; Sport versions of all weapon skills in style.
Techniques: Defensive Attack (Broadsword); Ground Fighting; Hook; Kicking; Knee Strike; Quick-Mount; Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Arm Joint); Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Groin); Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Leg Joint); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Face); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Groin); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Groin Chinks); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Neck); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Neck Chinks); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Vitals Chinks); Targeted Attack (Shield Bash/Jaw); Targeted Attack (Shield Bash/Nose); All applicable armed techniques of the style with one of the optional weapons.
Perks: Form Mastery (Lance); Grip Mastery (Any); Mobile Parry (Any); Off-Hand Weapon Training; Rapid Ready (Shield); Rapid Shield Drop; Shield Wrestling (Shield)*; Shoves and Tackles (Any); Sure-Footed (Uneven); Technique Mastery (Broadsword Defensive Attack); Weapon Bond.
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Last edited by Icelander; 08-10-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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