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Old 09-27-2018, 04:32 PM   #21
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

I think that the formal split in the rules of options into Disengaged and Engaged causes some unfortunate confusion based on the letter or the rules. I think Steve attempted to tighten this up in the new rules but it looks like it didn't work to me.

People are still confused about about what the limits are and when you can declare Dodge or (especially) Defend or not.

In particular, there's an issue because the Engaged section specifies movement and what option you can do, but a figure can START the turn Disengaged an then BECOME Engaged later, which does change what options they can SWITCH to during the Action phase, which leads to the idea (question?) of someone moving 1/2 MA, getting engaged, and then not being able to Defend(?) because Defend is listed as an option under Engaged people. It certainly looks like this is what the new Melee literally says.

The original circa-1980 Changing Options rule made it clear that you could change option to Defend OR Dodge during the Action phase if you had moved 1/2 MA or less during the Movement phase. (Personally I really like that, because it means people can react to what happens and are not unable to react to a threat because they committed to something while moving first and then their opponent exploits their commitment so their declared action is wasted not from moving too far, but because they chose Dodge so now they get ignored and can't do anything that turn.)

Let's see what the new ITL rules look like...

Page 117 (Defending and Dodging) has no comment on this. The changing options rule text from the old Wizard and Advanced Melee seems to have been left out of the new rules, only appearing (on new ITL 102) in the form it is in new Melee.

Sigh. So, sadly, unless I'm missing something or Steve realizes the issue in time, it looks like the rules have devolved to yes, requiring declaring Dodging during movement (so people can say, especially to the people who moved first, "Ok, we ignore the people who are Dodging, or go attack them with melee attacks, since they can't change to attacking or defending") and if people want to have the option to switch to Defend, they need to only move 1 hex.
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Old 09-27-2018, 05:21 PM   #22
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

Quote:
In particular, there's an issue because the Engaged section specifies movement and what option you can do, but a figure can START the turn Disengaged an then BECOME Engaged later, which does change what options they can SWITCH to during the Action phase, which leads to the idea (question?) of someone moving 1/2 MA, getting engaged, and then not being able to Defend(?) because Defend is listed as an option under Engaged people. It certainly looks like this is what the new Melee literally says.

The original circa-1980 Changing Options rule made it clear that you could change option to Defend OR Dodge during the Action phase if you had moved 1/2 MA or less during the Movement phase. (Personally I really like that, because it means people can react to what happens and are not unable to react to a threat because they committed to something while moving first and then their opponent exploits their commitment so their declared action is wasted not from moving too far, but because they chose Dodge so now they get ignored and can't do anything that turn.)

Let's see what the new ITL rules look like...

Page 117 (Defending and Dodging) has no comment on this. The changing options rule text from the old Wizard and Advanced Melee seems to have been left out of the new rules, only appearing (on new ITL 102) in the form it is in new Melee.

Sigh. So, sadly, unless I'm missing something or Steve realizes the issue in time, it looks like the rules have devolved to yes, requiring declaring Dodging during movement (so people can say, especially to the people who moved first, "Ok, we ignore the people who are Dodging, or go attack them with melee attacks, since they can't change to attacking or defending") and if people want to have the option to switch to Defend, they need to only move 1 hex.
I agree that it needs to be stated as clearly as it was in the circa 1980 Melee. I have actually read a copy of that at one time so the idea was already in my head that you can change your option at the beginning of your Action Phase turn. I hadn't even noticed that it wasn't that clear in the new versions.

However, one of the points I've been trying to make is that if you chose Dodge for your option and a missile user attacks you and adds another die to that attack because you are dodging, you are locked-in to Dodge until the start of the next Movement Phase. You cannot change your option to Attack once your turn comes in the Action Phase. That is correct, right?

The same goes for Defend. If you chose Defend and someone attacks you with an extra die, you are locked-in to Defend until the start of the next Movement Phase. Right?

Last edited by platimus; 09-27-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:03 PM   #23
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

That's the way I always played it.
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:39 AM   #24
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
However, one of the points I've been trying to make is that if you chose Dodge for your option and a missile user attacks you and adds another die to that attack because you are dodging, you are locked-in to Dodge until the start of the next Movement Phase. You cannot change your option to Attack once your turn comes in the Action Phase. That is correct, right?

The same goes for Defend. If you chose Defend and someone attacks you with an extra die, you are locked-in to Defend until the start of the next Movement Phase. Right?
Yeah, of course (in add editions of the rules) because then you are using your Action.

The difference is that in the new rules, it says you get locked into a Dodge when you declare your initial option with your movement. (If someone then moves to attack you, evidently you're still stuck in Dodge mode. And if you want the option to Defend you can only move one hex. Etc.)
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:24 AM   #25
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Yeah, of course (in add editions of the rules) because then you are using your Action.

The difference is that in the new rules, it says you get locked into a Dodge when you declare your initial option with your movement.
I'm OK with Dodge being locked-in during movement. It makes logical sense to me. I'm also OK if someone wants to rule that Dodge isn't locked-in until a missile user attacks you.

Quote:
(If someone then moves to attack you, evidently you're still stuck in Dodge mode. And if you want the option to Defend you can only move one hex. Etc.)
We make our moves one figure at a time. By the end of your "dodging move", you've already reached your destination. If your planned destination puts you in an engagement, you deserve to be locked-in to Dodge. Plan better next time.

Alternatively, you dodge while moving and reach your destination. There's no one there to engage you. Pat yourself on the back because you "looked before you lept". Or did you? Another figure gets it's turn to move after your turn to move. They move to your current location and engage you. Maybe you should have thought of that.<other figures make their moves. end of movement phase>
<action phase begins>
You get no action because you were dodging. Dodging was your action. You can't Defend. The figure attacks you and hits or misses. I assume you were Dodging because there are archers somewhere on the board. They take their turns and attack you using an extra die. Your Dodge wasn't wasted.<other figures take their actions. end of action phase>
<new movement phase>
You're engaged. You think you want to Defend. This allows you to shift one hex. You shift one hex to prevent the other figure from shifting into you side hex. The other figure shifts to get closer to your side.<end movement phase>
<begin action phase>
You could still attack or attempt HTH or Disengage but you decide to stick to Defend. The other figure attacks but must use and extra die.<end action phase>

I don't have an issue with any of that. Do you?

Last edited by platimus; 09-28-2018 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:45 AM   #26
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

I will say this regarding the previous scenario I described where Dodge is locked-in during movement: The use of Dodge in that scenario only makes tactical sense if there are more archers able to shoot at you than there are non-missile users able to move and engage you. If there was one archer on the field and 3 non-missile figures able to engage you, Dodge was not your best option/strategy. If it were reversed (3 archers and 1 non-missile user), Dodge was a tactically sound decision.

I thought this was the purpose and draw of TFT. It's sort of like battle-chess.

I think the way someone phrases things here (without a board and pieces on it and all the other details), it's very easy to think "That's just crazy! That shouldn't be allowed to happen!" But if you were to actually play these things out on a board with pieces and all the other details, it actually makes sense.

Last edited by platimus; 09-28-2018 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:52 AM   #27
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

I would never use a 'locked in' version of any action; the whole point of the separate move and action segments of the game is the interaction between each side's moves, positioning and possible choice of actions. If you make people commit to a specific action as they move this breaks down; its a huge disadvantage to the person who commits in this way, unless everyone has to do it.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:00 AM   #28
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I would never use a 'locked in' version of any action; the whole point of the separate move and action segments of the game is the interaction between each side's moves, positioning and possible choice of actions. If you make people commit to a specific action as they move this breaks down; its a huge disadvantage to the person who commits in this way, unless everyone has to do it.
Well, Dodge and Charge are the only ones I would lock-in during movement but I don't think it would make a huge difference during play so I'm Ok with either way. Keep in mind that your movement limits your actions. I agree that is the whole point of the separate move and action segments.

Also, it's sort of unclear which way it should be with Dodge and Charge in the current RAW. I would like for it to be made more clear. What I wanted to make sure was VERY clear to Hcobb was that if he chose Dodge, it is most definitely locked-in once a missile user attacks him. His example only mentioned 2 figures but there could have been other figures on the board. He (X) may have been trying to get Y but there could have been an A, B, and C on the sidelines taking shots at him.

Last edited by platimus; 09-28-2018 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:32 AM   #29
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

To answer Hcobb's original question, "When is Dodge committed?"
Answer1: The first time a missile user attacks the Dodging figure.
Answer2: As soon as the Dodging figure moves.

I'm inclined to go with Answer2 because Y would see X zig-zagging toward him and think "That's gonna be a tough shot. There's guy over yonder standing still. I think I'll shoot him instead." I'm not sure if that's really wise on Y's part though. X is coming to knock his block off. The "guy over yonder" is a lower threat to him at the moment. I think it's Y's best interest to go ahead and shoot at X (to hopefully do some damage before the engagement starts).

If you go with Answer1, Y should be even more motivated to shoot at X.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:36 AM   #30
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: When is a Dodge comitted?

In regards to X changing his option to Charge during the action phase (at the last second), that is problematic. What if X had a polearm? Polearm charges are to be handled before all other actions.
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