What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

[Terquem]

This doesn't make sense to me. If figures are acting in order of AdjDex, and let's say 14 doesn't get to go because 15 knocked 14 prone (unconscious), so now 13 (standing in the hex next to 14) changes options (legally) to rush to 13's aid, but 10 shouts out, "wait, I'm going to hit 13 on my turn and when I do I will be 14 and go before 13" just can't be right

Look, in my mind, 10 doesn't have an adjDex of 14 UNTIL they act, on 10, so the 14 adjusts the roll but can't possibly adjust the timing of the attack

It just seems that an attack cannot adjust the timing of itself, you make the attack based on your AdjDex determined before the attack is carried out, the attack itself can adjust the roll needed to score a hit, but cannot adjust the timing because it does not occur until it occurs.

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by Terquem

This doesn't make sense to me.... Look, in my mind, 10 doesn't have an adjDex of 14 UNTIL they act, on 10, so the 14 adjusts the roll but can't possibly adjust the timing of the attack....

Exactly! I even rule that when a character takes enough hits to suffer -2 DX next turn (the RAW do call it "next turn"), that is literally next turn.

Adrenaline still allows them to act at their adjusted DX if they have not been knocked prone or killed outright. As the rush of adrenaline wears off and the shock and pain set in, then the -2 DX penalty takes affect for the next turn.

As far as my mind can comprehend, a DX 10 cannot suddenly act at DX 14 speed because by the time the DX 10 acts, the moment during the five-second turn when all DX 14s acted has already passed.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Terquem

This doesn't make sense to me. If figures are acting in order of AdjDex, and let's say 14 doesn't get to go because 15 knocked 14 prone (unconscious), so now 13 (standing in the hex next to 14) changes options (legally) to rush to 13's aid, but 10 shouts out, "wait, I'm going to hit 13 on my turn and when I do I will be 14 and go before 13" just can't be right

Yes it sounds awkward as phrased, but I can say it works well in practice. Not saying this is the "CORRECT WAY" -- but we played examples like yours, exactly as you describe, many 100s of times. Whoever has the highest adjDX at the time acts, and this can (sometimes) depend on their action. So striking at a prone figure (or from the target's rear hex) might mean you act sooner than if you strike a different target.

One nice thing about it in practice is that it keeps everyone "in the game" and looking at how what's happening on the board affects them.

The other thing I would say -- while I don't think any good comes from taking the time scale TOO seriously -- the turns are to be 5 seconds. High DX at this time scale can't really be about how quickly you move your arms, but how fluently you can make a good attack. So not unreasonable at this kind of timescale that easier == faster.

[Terquem]

I absolutely agree that striking, from a position of advantage, can adjust Dexterity and thus the timing of an attack, but only when done in the proper order, because

1) Every figure moves
2) Adjusted Dex is determined based on position (and circumstance) - attack order is set
3) Attacks are carried out

So, position, can adjust timing of an attack, but until a figure actually acts, the act it takes should not adjust its Dexterity regarding when it acts, but should only adjust dexterity regarding the success, or not, of the act.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by flankspeed

What boggles my mind is how much predetermination must take place in order to let every single DX adjustment affect play, and then how often that carefully crafted turn order will be interrupted by situational modifiers.

Every single figure must declare their attacks at the start of the turn in order to know where they fit in the turn order, but can every single figure change their mind at any time to gain new speed from situational modifiers? That hurts my brain.

The fact that an adjDX=10 enemy who suddenly has the opportunity to attack a prone player character at +4 DX would immediately jump ahead of another player character with adjDX=13 who is trying to save his fallen friend seems like a recipe for complication and frustration. I would not want to preempt the adjDX=13 player character from trying to save his friend by hitting the enemy first.

To each their own though, and whatever is fun for a group is what works for them.

Yes, it might depend on what you're used to, but I can say that going by adjDX means the action is free-flowing.

It doesn't lead to arguments (even in the litigious crowds I've played with) because there isn't ambiguity: My adjDX is highest at the mo, so I act now!

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Terquem

1) Every figure moves
2) Adjusted Dex is determined based on position (and circumstance) - attack order is set
3) Attacks are carried out

I think this is different from RAW, and I think this probably would lead to arguments in the groups I've been in (eg at least *I* would be a difficult player). In what order do you determine who attacks who? If the giant is attacking me, I'm defending! If he is attacking elsewhere I'm attacking him!

So would you need to declare targets in basic DX order? Or reverse order, etc. If you are declaring order of attacks in adjDX order, then is it really much different from simply acting in adjDX order? Maybe I'm not understanding though.

[guymc]

My own non-official take on this is my preference to consider action order based on the adjDX at the time the turn begins.If an action has yet to be taken, any DX adjustment applied because of that action will not affect your adjDX for purposes of determining who acts first.

Thus, if you are under a spell that affects your DX, or you are wearing armor that restricts it, or operating with a modified DX because of a continuing condition that was there at the beginning of the turn and will still be there throughout the action portion of the turn, it affects your action order. If it is a transient DX adjustment based on just the nature of the action you are taking or other factors that would not apply to ANY action you would take during the turn, it is not figured into action order.

The logic of this is supported by the fact that you can choose a different action when it comes your place in the queue (as it were) which may not have a similar DX modification. If the DX mod would not apply then to determine action order, it should not apply at all.

This at least has the advantage of being easy to implement and fast, which is what I want in a combat situation.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by guymc

My own non-official take on this is my preference to consider action order based on the adjDX at the time the turn begins.If an action has yet to be taken, any DX adjustment applied because of that action will not affect your adjDX for purposes of determining who acts first.

If I understand this means you don't take facing bonuses into account in determining order of action?

Another possibly interesting case, if you are hit by a Clumsiness spell, that doesn't affect turn order on the turn cast, just accuracy, but on the following turn affects both order and accuracy.

Which is fine of course, but does seem to run counter to the RAW rules, eg as noted earlier by flankspeed.

I kind of feel myself gravitating to RAW (adjDX is used for everything).

THe alternatives here do carry costs, although obviously they aren't so great as to keep people from loving the game. I thnk there's been two: One, is the DX adjustment due to an internal or external force? To be unambiguous this would require a listing of possible adjustments and their locus. For example, Clumsiness or Aid spell: are these "internal" or "external"; facing: "internal" or "external"? Two, the idea that the DX adjustment is being carried from the previous turn. This is less ambiguous than internal/external (to my mind), but does mean a little bookkeeping, as the GM needs to make a list of DX orders at the end of each turn.

[Terquem]

I suppose I am going off this statement in Advanced Melee

Note: Many times a figure's DX will change during the course of a turn, due to spells or wounds. After the figure with the highest DX acts, the figure which goes next is the one (of those which have not yet acted that turn) with the highest adjDX AT THAT MOMENT.

now, a figure with adjDX 10, who intends to strike a prone character, has not yet acted, but AT THAT MOMENT, before it actually acts, does not have a +4 DX adjustment, it only has a +4 DX adjustment when it acts, so there is no adjustment to when this figure acts (in this case it seems clear, in other cases it might get more complicated).

It seems like it should always be a simple matter of looking at the situation, at the moment, and determining who has the highest adjDX, given those figures and their current situation (not their intended actions).

[Rick_Smith]

We have always played that if an enemy gets knocked down, everyone who wants to attack him immediately get the DX advantage and can attack more quickly. The up shot of this, is it is better to knock down the orc before the orc knocks you down.

As people have said, EVERY ONE pays attention to every blow, because the situation may change to their advantage and they want to step in if it does so. There is none of the "Well my DX is only a 12 so I'll daydream for a while."

As for who picks options when, in our group, everyone picks options as they move. "I'm moving half and attacking", "I'm shifting one and defending." So the side that moves first picks actions first. But at any time people can say, "I'm changing my action to X!" It remains flexible until they actually do an action. Once you have defended and forced someone to roll an extra die, then your action has been locked in.

In practice, that means that figures with high DX tend to lock in their actions earlier because they DO their actions earlier.

-- "You can't switch to defend, you already attacked Jilly-Joe the Dismayer!"
-- "Oh, you are right. Curse my high DX!"

(Actually this would never happen, no one curses their high DX.) ;-D

The advantage of being able to change your actions in the middle of the turn is it keeps everyone engaged, watching the situation like a hawk, in case an option change will be advantageous.

Of course, other people will prefer other rules.

Warm regards, Rick.