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Old 07-31-2018, 10:18 PM   #31
Jim Kane
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I don't see a problem with unexpected bonuses. In a big fight the GM is probably counting down, "DX 13 ... DX 12 ... DX 11," and someone says, "I'm 11," and rolls an attack. If an enemy goes down, creating an unexpected +4 DX modifier then when the GM says, "DX 13," someone says, "I'm 15 with the +4 for my target being prone," and makes an attack. The rule is that at any moment the person to act is the one with the best adjDX, taking into account their chosen action and desired target, who hasn't acted yet.
And... another GM might say that same attacking figure - DX 11 - has to wait until after all DX 13 and DX 12 figures have finished their actions before he can attack the prone enemy, and only then, your DX 11 figure acts, BUT, with a +4 to-hit only - affecting and improving only his accuracy (effectively DX 15), but *not* when he acts in a turn.

And another GM might have a different decisions still, and so on and so forth, etc.

So, it never "a problem", as long as everyone in your group agrees the way you choose is the *right* way for your group.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 07-31-2018 at 10:20 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 07-31-2018, 10:27 PM   #32
JLV
 
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

Which is a really good point -- a lot of these interpretations are based on years of consensus building that has long since vanished from our forebrains as a memory.

And that is why I always advocate a few arena battles to "warm up" the crowd (especially if they are newbies) before you go into a full-on campaign -- so your players and you can build a consensus on how these interpretations play out *before* it's "life and death" in the campaign. It'll save you a lot of heartburn down the road!
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Old 07-31-2018, 11:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
.... My principle is that people act based on their own overall adjDX. If they are getting a bonus or penalty to do something based on the target or how they're trying to attack it, that just makes it harder or easier, but not happen sooner or later.
It sounds like my house ruling aligns very well with yours. Nonetheless, I do agree with the general sentiment here that what mattes most is to follow the recipe that cooks up the most fun for your particular group.

You can add just a pinch of detail to differentiate speed based only on overall adjusted DX or pour in a heaping helping of gritty detail taking into account every single DX adjustment as soon as it affects combat.

The original rules as written did distinguish range penalties as NOT affecting speed, so at least we know some DX adjustments were meant in the RAW to only affect accuracy.

Other than that, I imagine we will get some sort of clarification in the revised rules, and then some of us will promptly ignore that and do our own thing anyway, hehe. That's the prerogative of every "Iron Chef," "Galloping Gourmet" GM! (Yes, I'm dating myself with those references because I'm referring to the old, original Japanese Iron Chef that I remember watching before the turn of the century, haha.)

Bon appetit!
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Last edited by flankspeed; 07-31-2018 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:32 AM   #34
Skarg
 
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

Yeah, it's not a problem per se to do it one way or the other. There are just trade-offs or matters of taste.

I am very frequently surprised by what people find complex or not, and this is a very rare case where I actually find something complex and some others don't... although I suspect it's partly because they don't think it comes up that much.

To me, it seems like a lot of complexity to add for little or no effect that I want. Maybe it also seems more of a big deal to me because I have often run some pretty large battles in TFT, and the effect is multiplied by the number of figures in the combat, especially for the GM. If I'm tracking 10 or 20 or more NPCs in a combat, I'm not put off by the work of playing them, except I'd really rather not have to think about them all having several different points at which they might be able to act depending on exactly what they all choose to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
[howitzer]
I wish, though, that multiple shot archery came with a DX penalty.
[/howitzer]
(Did I use that tag correctly?)
Yes, you used it right AND I would say that is a really good idea, as it would add a choice and reduce the degree to which there are "magic" DX levels where suddenly accurate archers double in RoF.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:33 AM   #35
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
...
To me, it seems like a lot of complexity to add for little or no effect that I want. Maybe it also seems more of a big deal to me because I have often run some pretty large battles in TFT, and the effect is multiplied by the number of figures in the combat, especially for the GM. ...
Hi Skarg, everyone.
When I run huge battles (say over 50 character), I simplify a few things. All PC's go first and then all NPC's go sweeping from left to right. And the NPC's usually don't use exotic combat options.

This usually works out OK, since in battles this big the bad guys are zombies, or lots of low level guys.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-01-2018, 02:33 AM   #36
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by flankspeed View Post
The original rules as written did distinguish range penalties as NOT affecting speed, so at least we know some DX adjustments were meant in the RAW to only affect accuracy.

Other than that, I imagine we will get some sort of clarification in the revised rules, and then some of us will promptly ignore that and do our own thing anyway, hehe. That's the prerogative of every "Iron Chef," "Galloping Gourmet" GM! (Yes, I'm dating myself with those references because I'm referring to the old, original Japanese Iron Chef that I remember watching before the turn of the century, haha.)

Bon appetit!
There is one other nugget from the Advanced Melee:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advanced Melee, "Attacks"
During the action phase of the turn, figures act in order of their adjusted DX, with the highest adjusted DX going first. DX is affected by many things, including the position of the enemy you are attacking
I take this to mean that attacking from from the rear or side is intended to affect speed.
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Old 08-01-2018, 02:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by flankspeed View Post
That's the prerogative of every "Iron Chef," "Galloping Gourmet" GM! (Yes, I'm dating myself with those references because I'm referring to the old, original Japanese Iron Chef that I remember watching before the turn of the century, haha.)
My God, I thought I was the only one who remembered the Galloping Gourmet! I remember being home sick from school for an entire week (the flu, or the mumps, or something else that was hideously contagious) and being reduced to watching that guy's show around 1PM or so because I couldn't sleep in the afternoons. I think I was about 8 years old at the time! ;-) I haven't thought about him in 50 years. Surprisingly, I actually started to enjoy the show -- he was a good entertainer.
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:01 AM   #38
Jim Kane
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
There is one other nugget from the Advanced Melee:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advanced Melee, "Attacks"
During the action phase of the turn, figures act in order of their adjusted DX, with the highest adjusted DX going first. DX is affected by many things, including the position of the enemy you are attacking

I take this to mean that attacking from from the rear or side is intended to affect speed.
Well, again, it all depends on the GM. It very well could mean exactly what it says, or perhaps, it only means that in certain cases, and actually means something else in certain cases when other rules which precede or supersede that general statement are considered, and by whom.

In the very best presentation of certain rules on situations in which DX is adjusted, we can find 5 elements of information which are clearly presented/answered in the narrative description:
  • How or If a figure's turn to Act is affected (up or down)
  • How or If the Accuracy of the figure is affected (up or down)
  • When both Timing AND Accuracy is affected
  • When only Timing OR Accuracy is affected
  • And the rational behind the rule
However, not all the RAW are presented this way, or account for all these questions equally; and therefore it is left to the GM to figure out what the overriding default condition is - again, based on other preceding and/or superseding rules - and that is how we end up with so many interpretations of the RAW.

And maybe that is a good thing.

Some of my favorite times with my cousin and main TFT friends were spent "litigating" a situation in determining what the rules truly intended, what we felt was a fair and accurate as a simulation of combat, and what we ultimately wanted *our game* to do and *feel* like.

JK
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
There is one other nugget from the Advanced Melee....
Thank you for digging up another nugget from the RAW!

What boggles my mind is how much predetermination must take place in order to let every single DX adjustment affect play, and then how often that carefully crafted turn order will be interrupted by situational modifiers.

Every single figure must declare their attacks at the start of the turn in order to know where they fit in the turn order, but can every single figure change their mind at any time to gain new speed from situational modifiers? That hurts my brain.

The fact that an adjDX=10 enemy who suddenly has the opportunity to attack a prone player character at +4 DX would immediately jump ahead of another player character with adjDX=13 who is trying to save his fallen friend seems like a recipe for complication and frustration. I would not want to preempt the adjDX=13 player character from trying to save his friend by hitting the enemy first.

To each their own though, and whatever is fun for a group is what works for them.
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Last edited by flankspeed; 08-01-2018 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:56 AM   #40
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Default Re: What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

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My God, I thought I was the only one who remembered the Galloping Gourmet!... Surprisingly, I actually started to enjoy the show -- he was a good entertainer.
These young whippersnappers around here don't even remember rotary dial phones, phone booths, 8-track and cassette and VHS tapes, having so few TV channels you could count them on one hand, and dial-up bulletin boards without the Internet.

I'm glad I could bring back a blast from the past!
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