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Old 07-14-2018, 07:21 PM   #1
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Main-Gauche

Created a number of characters today.

My question for myself and everyone else: What was I *thinking* with making the left-handed dagger -2 to the user's DX? Why would anyone ever take it instead of a shield? And why would anyone ever stab with it if it messed up their main attack by -4?

I cannot recapture my thought process on that rule. It's stood for 40 years and no one has picketed my office, but . . . (derp)

Proposed better rule, but not tested at all:

A left-hand dagger is a parrying weapon and reduces by 1 the DX of any hand-weapon attack made against you. It does not give this protection against polearms, missile weapons, or two-handed weapons. It does not prevent damage if you are hit.

If you attack with a main-gauche, it does not protect you against any attacks that turn. Roll the dagger attack at -4 DX.
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:32 PM   #2
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Main-Gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Created a number of characters today.

My question for myself and everyone else: What was I *thinking* with making the left-handed dagger -2 to the user's DX? Why would anyone ever take it instead of a shield? And why would anyone ever stab with it if it messed up their main attack by -4?

I cannot recapture my thought process on that rule. It's stood for 40 years and no one has picketed my office, but . . . (derp)

Proposed better rule, but not tested at all:

A left-hand dagger is a parrying weapon and reduces by 1 the DX of any hand-weapon attack made against you. It does not give this protection against polearms, missile weapons, or two-handed weapons. It does not prevent damage if you are hit.

If you attack with a main-gauche, it does not protect you against any attacks that turn. Roll the dagger attack at -4 DX.
I can't even find the rules for the main-gauche! However, I can only assume that, under the original rules, the advantage comes once DX gets higher; then the -4DX is less important.

The problem I have with the new rule is the "parry". So you can parry with a dagger but not a shield? This seems to be moving the rules into some new territory.
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:43 PM   #3
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Main-Gauche

Well, indeed you do not parry with a shield. It is reasonable in a vacuum that they have different effects.

But yes, along with the penalty to attacking DX in some of the advanced fighting talents, it's adding a new dimension, in the maths sense, to combat. And I'm not sure that is best.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:16 PM   #4
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Main-Gauche

Hi Steve,
I thought the Main-Gauche was underpowered, so I gave it bonuses in my Dagger ii and Dagger iii talents.

But I have LOTS of talents!

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:06 PM   #5
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Main-Gauche

I think I DO like the revised version better than the existing one. It seems to me that it captures the effects of a Main Gauche better (at least according to the swashbuckling rules and novels I've read over the years). It also makes it more attractive as an exchange for a Shield of some kind.

Of course, I can't speak from personal experience, since they aren't "legal" in modern sports fencing...
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:30 PM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Main-Gauche

I have thought TFT Main Gauche was not a very good weapon ever since I started playing Melee when I was 11. I rarely gave it even to NPCs except for novelty (or the strange comedy that comes out of making thousands of NPC characters - like, it's a funny way to tease your players to have one of their expensive mercenaries reveal their preference for the main gauche after you're already days into the wilderness...).

It is slightly better if you take the Advanced Melee paragraph on page 13 as correcting the DX penalty to only -1 (even though the ITL/AM tables still show it as -2). But it's still -1 DX for a more limited version of what you get with a small shield at -0 DX.

(Imagine if you could actually parry and stop an entire attack with one... or a shield...)

On the other hand, it does weigh a lot less than a shield, and if you have a high DX, it does give you an extra 1d-1 attack. So all you high-DX fighters with nothing better to do with your left hand could kill nuisance creates or Images twice as quickly. And if someone jumps you in HTH, you'll already have a dagger ready. All those compelling advantages. Ironically, under the new Weapon Master talents, in could theoretically be very strong because presumably you'd get the extra 1d or 1d+2 added to that attack too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I can't even find the rules for the main-gauche!
(Main gauche rules are on Melee page 11 or Advanced Melee page 13, under LEDT-HAND DAGGER/WEAPONS.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
A left-hand dagger is a parrying weapon and reduces by 1 the DX of any hand-weapon attack made against you. It does not give this protection against polearms, missile weapons, or two-handed weapons. It does not prevent damage if you are hit.

If you attack with a main-gauche, it does not protect you against any attacks that turn. Roll the dagger attack at -4 DX.
I think I like this, at first consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
The problem I have with the new rule is the "parry". So you can parry with a dagger but not a shield? This seems to be moving the rules into some new territory.
Well yes, it makes me want to be able to do the same thing with the sword in my right hand, or the shield I'd rather be using than the main gauche. ;-)

Last edited by Skarg; 07-14-2018 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:59 AM   #7
ak_aramis
 
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alsea, OR
Default Re: Main-Gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Well, indeed you do not parry with a shield. It is reasonable in a vacuum that they have different effects.

But yes, along with the penalty to attacking DX in some of the advanced fighting talents, it's adding a new dimension, in the maths sense, to combat. And I'm not sure that is best.
Real world use? Yes, one does parry with a shield. The smaller the shield, the more you must parry with it to be protected by it; the bigger, the more effort is required to parry with it. The standard heater is VERY much an active defense tool, and has some offense uses, too.

That said, I've parried greatsword simulator (6' of rattan and ducktape) strikes with a 14" diameter round targe.... it's not about stopping the sword (or simulator), but about making it not hit you.
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Old 07-15-2018, 03:08 AM   #8
ak_aramis
 
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alsea, OR
Default Re: Main-Gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I think I DO like the revised version better than the existing one. It seems to me that it captures the effects of a Main Gauche better (at least according to the swashbuckling rules and novels I've read over the years). It also makes it more attractive as an exchange for a Shield of some kind.

Of course, I can't speak from personal experience, since they aren't "legal" in modern sports fencing...
They are legal in ARMA, HEMA, SCA-Rapier, SCA-Cut-And-Thrust, and SCA-Broadsword. Modern "olympic" fencing is all single-sword, with no sign of the variety of historical defense weapons. SCA allows all of the following off-hand weapons: sword, dagger, buckler, short-cloak, baton (≤4' long), and wooden rubber-band-gun (the shooting is restricted to melee scenarios, but the gun is allowed as a parrying implement in duels). Some kingdoms allow great-cloak, as well, and I've used a wool great cloak. It's the hardest to actively parry, and the heaviest of the lot.

The goal is to make the opponent miss you with your main gauche/dagger, and hit him with your sword while he's focused upon your dagger.

The ability to eviscerate your opponent with a main gauche is secondary.

Off-hand weapons require some practice to get right... (and that's a bad bad intentional pun.)
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:25 AM   #9
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Main-Gauche

Quote:
Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
They are legal in ARMA, HEMA, SCA-Rapier, SCA-Cut-And-Thrust, and SCA-Broadsword. Modern "olympic" fencing is all single-sword, with no sign of the variety of historical defense weapons. SCA allows all of the following off-hand weapons: sword, dagger, buckler, short-cloak, baton (≤4' long), and wooden rubber-band-gun (the shooting is restricted to melee scenarios, but the gun is allowed as a parrying implement in duels). Some kingdoms allow great-cloak, as well, and I've used a wool great cloak. It's the hardest to actively parry, and the heaviest of the lot.

The goal is to make the opponent miss you with your main gauche/dagger, and hit him with your sword while he's focused upon your dagger.

The ability to eviscerate your opponent with a main gauche is secondary.

Off-hand weapons require some practice to get right... (and that's a bad bad intentional pun.)
I fenced Olympic style. As I said, I have no experience with them because they were illegal there. I've never been a member of SCA.
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:42 AM   #10
RobW
 
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Main-Gauche

I agree main-gauche is not a good tactical choice, but it arguably had a niche in the original rules.

But is main-gauche really worth the trouble of introducing a new and unique defensive mechanic for equipment (ie makes you harder to hit but doesn't stop damage)? And if that mechanic were to be introduced, it does sound a lot like what a real-life shield would do.

So as others have raised, why have this kind of quirky dagger do things that the entire range of shields cannot.
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