Shotgun Rules

[mummy_lord]

Hello!

I have some problems with shotgun rules:

Basic rules are straightforward (B409): "At ranges less than 10% of 1/2D, don’t apply the RoF multiplier to RoF. Instead, multiply both basic damage dice and the target’s DR by half that value (round down)"

A "Remington Model 870, 12G 2.75” (HT104):
Damage: 1d+1 pi
Range 40/800
RoF 2x9
Rcl 1 (5 with a Solid Slug)

At less than 4 yards, damage is 4d+4 pi (or 5d pi) and target DR receives a x4 multiplier. So DR 0 stays 0, DR 1 becomes 4 and so on. Rcl is still 1.

If loaded with Solid Slugs (HT166): damage is 4d+4 pi++ (or 5d pi++). Rcl becomes 5. No Change to Target DR.

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Question #1:

Reading "Tactical Shooting" (pp.6): "For more authentic point-blank results (at 10% of 1/2D Range), use the Rcl statistic for slugs, not shot, and change the damage type to huge piercing (pi++) due to the large area of the wound".

Thus:

damage is 1d+1 pi++ and target DR receives a x4 multiplier. So DR 0 stays 0, DR 1 becomes 4 and so on. Rcl is 5.

or

damage is 4d+4 pi++ (or 5d pi++) and target DR receives a x4 multiplier. So DR 0 stays 0, DR 1 becomes 4 and so on. Rcl is 5.

or

damage is 1d+1 pi++. No Change to Target DR. Rcl is 5.

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Question #2

In High-Tech p. 173, "Birdshot does small piercing (pi-) damage and has a (0.5) armor divisor. Treat DR 0 as DR 1 (see p. B379)"

Greener Police Gun, 14.5G 2.56” (High Tech: Pulp Guns 1 p. 27)
Damage 1d-1(0.5) pi-
Range 25/500
RoF 1x37
Rcl 1/5

At range less than 2.5 yard, damage should be 18d-18 pi-. But what about Target DR?

Target DR of 0 is considered 1, so it becomes 18?
Target DR of 0 is considered 1 but it is no modified further?

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Question #3

How aformentioned Birdshot shell interact with "Tactical Shooting" (pp.6) as noted in Question #1?


Thank you!

Luca

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by mummy_lord

Question #1:

...

damage is 4d+4 pi++ (or 5d pi++) and target DR receives a x4 multiplier. So DR 0 stays 0, DR 1 becomes 4 and so on. Rcl is 5.

This one. Tactical Shooting makes specified alterations to the Basic rule, it doesn't wholesale replace the Basic rule.

Originally Posted by mummy_lord

Question #2

In High-Tech p. 173, "Birdshot does small piercing (pi-) damage and has a (0.5) armor divisor. Treat DR 0 as DR 1 (see p. B379)"

Greener Police Gun, 14.5G 2.56” (High Tech: Pulp Guns 1 p. 27)
Damage 1d-1(0.5) pi-
Range 25/500
RoF 1x37
Rcl 1/5

At range less than 2.5 yard, damage should be 18d-18 pi-. But what about Target DR?

Target DR of 0 is considered 1, so it becomes 18?
Target DR of 0 is considered 1 but it is no modified further?

Birdshot rules are problematic. I'd highly recommend dodging the question of how they combine with the also-hackish short range shot rule by just ruling that inside too-short range all shot behaves like buckshot - the real upshot of which is that all shot behaves like a a very soft slug.

Originally Posted by mummy_lord

Question #3

How aformentioned Birdshot shell interact with "Tactical Shooting" (pp.6) as noted in Question #1?

Doesn't change anything there.

[mummy_lord]

Thank you!

I found an article on Pyramid #70 that aims to address the problems with damage for small pellets...

"REVISITING HIGH-TECH"

In practice, however, this could have been
solved by a simpler approach, which is to treat a number of
small projectiles as a single “shot,” thus avoiding the need to roll
for 1d-5(0.2) pi- damage and similar edge cases.
Use the following formula to calculate the NS modifier
(High-Tech, p. 172):

NS = 1/(square root of NP)

For buckshot, NP is actual number of pellets. For birdshot,
NP is actual number of pellets divided by 10. For smallshot, NP
is actual number of pellets divided by 100.

Example: A 12-gauge 2.75” shell with a one-ounce load of 6
Birdshot contains 223 pellets (NP = 223/10 = 22.3). NS is
1/(square root of 22.3) = 0.21. Damage is 5d x 0.21 = 1.05 or
1d(0.5) pi-. RoF is x22. A 12-gauge 2.75” shell with a one-ounce
load of 10 Birdshot contains 868 pellets (NP = 868/100 = 8.68).
NS is 1/(square root of 8.68) = 0.34. Damage is 5d x 0.34 = 1.70
or 2d-1(0.2) pi-. RoF is x9.

But doing so... the damage for standard shotguns (00 Buckshot) increases considerably.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by mummy_lord

I found an article on Pyramid #70 that aims to address the problems with damage for small pellets...

That probably has sensible results for the aggregate damage to soft targets, but I'm not a fan of how it ruins the point of small shot being easy to hit with (note the smallshot example getting the same RoF as buckshot). And in the same move takes away their ineffectiveness against any sort of armor...

Originally Posted by mummy_lord

But doing so... the damage for standard shotguns (00 Buckshot) increases considerably.

No, it doesn't - for buckshot it works exactly the same as HT p172 does.

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No, it doesn't - for buckshot it works exactly the same as HT p172 does.

Sort of yes and no. Bird fired at extreme close range hits with high skill and a huge ROF bonus so you'd be tossing possibly dozens of dice. Even if none of the pellets can punch through a thick jacket there's a good chance they'll do Blunt Force damage in large enough numbers. It's a small difference but it matters.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Sort of yes and no. Bird fired at extreme close range hits with high skill and a huge ROF bonus so you'd be tossing possibly dozens of dice. .

Not dozens. Full ROF 100 is +7 and it goes up +1 each time you double. You'd have to have an effective ROF of over 10 million to get a+24.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Sort of yes and no. Bird fired at extreme close range hits with high skill and a huge ROF bonus so you'd be tossing possibly dozens of dice. Even if none of the pellets can punch through a thick jacket there's a good chance they'll do Blunt Force damage in large enough numbers. It's a small difference but it matters.

...Which has what to do with buckshot? Did you quote the wrong paragraph?

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Not dozens. Full ROF 100 is +7 and it goes up +1 each time you double. You'd have to have an effective ROF of over 10 million to get a+24.

If you're at +2 Range firing 300 bird pellet, even with a 15 skill, it's in the realm of the possible. Even 24 1d-5 pellets are less likely to do blunt force damage than they would be likely to do a critical hit that causes injury. I'd like birding and shot to be more dynamic, but it's not impossible that individual pellets would cause damage to someone in armor.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

If you're at +2 Range firing 300 bird pellet, even with a 15 skill, it's in the realm of the possible. Even 24 1d-5 pellets are less likely to do blunt force damage than they would be likely to do a critical hit that causes injury. I'd like birding and shot to be more dynamic, but it's not impossible that individual pellets would cause damage to someone in armor.

Except you only roll once per turn, just as in any other situations where RoF is greater than one. You get additional hits if your Margin of Success is greater than zero.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Sort of yes and no. Bird fired at extreme close range hits with high skill and a huge ROF bonus so you'd be tossing possibly dozens of dice. Even if none of the pellets can punch through a thick jacket there's a good chance they'll do Blunt Force damage in large enough numbers. It's a small difference but it matters.

Birdshot fired at extreme close range doesn't get an RoF bonus - it functions as a highly-frangible slug, because it hasn't had a chance to spread out yet. Granted, you don't need to be very far from your target for GURPS to give that spread - a target 3 yards away from that Greener Police Gun posted earlier is outside the "boomstick range," and so sees the full effect of RoF. So long as you would have hit at 2 yards* (within the 2.5 yard "boomstick range"), the net +4 at 3 yards (-1 for Range, +5 for RoF) means hitting with at least 5 pellets. Hitting with dozens isn't really possible outside of incredible skill, although you could get lucky and hit with a dozen or more. 24 hits (the lowest that can be called "dozens") calls for rolling a 3 with effective skill 26.

*Note there's a breakpoint issue here, as it really shouldn't be easier to hit a target at 3 yards than it is at 2 yards.