Combat Engineering Feedback Forum

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

...The units firing will be to one side or the other was my point...yes, the rounds coming in on the tow hitch will be from above or the sides, and detonating underneath, like a mine would as well. It's still a narrow target. I'm assuming it would also be covered in BPC, and not anymore exposed as an OGRE Secondary or Main Battery, I would argue it's just as important as an OGREs weaponry, being a recovery OGRE.

The hitch is just as important, but much more vulnerable. The barrel of a main gun has one end out in the wind. A tow hitch will be joining the vulcan to the towed ogre. You need a shot to twist the vulcan one direction and the towed ogre in the other, to torque the joint. It's an easy penetrator shot in the ground, under the joint. It's a lot like a WWII torpedo detonating under the ship, to lift it and break the keel.

The towed ogre can't move on it's own - zero treads. If the treads ride on a belt, likely one of the four belts is broken. That ogre is likely being dragged on it's belly. That'll dig a furrow as easy to target as a jet's contrail.

The target area is far bigger than an AP gun, active defenses are all that can save it. D1.

A "RECOVEROGRE"...haha

Snerk.

"14.03.6 – Tread Field Repair. Ogre treads may be repaired in the field as well. Either a Vulcan or a Heavy Drone may attempt to repair treads: two dice for a Vulcan, one for each drone. For every 6 that is rolled during the attempt, one tread is repaired."

...That's not very fast...even with a bunch of Drones lending helping hands (yes, I went there) ;) it sounds like a "believable" rate, but if you need to bug-out a disabled vehicle in a hurry, towing is always going to be the best option.

That's committing your vulcan to sit still for three turns vs dragging at M1 to the edge of the map for 15 turns. Getting the ogre moving on its own, then using the vulcan's speed and guns to take out raiding GEVs is a better tactic.

The better strategic option is to secure the area and make the recovery at leisure. Send in the vulcan, fix a tread to get the ogre to M1, split the escorts, then move on to the next chore, or at least get that irreplaceable strategic asset out of harm's way. If there's a credible threat, best to save the vulcan and try the salvage operation again later.

Not allowing towing on a recovery vehicle, regardless of what century it is in would be like not allowing Peanut Butter on a PB&J sandwich, and still call it a PB&J sandwich.

Or you could just let it tow with one of those creepy hands. It's still a tactical and strategic faux pas.

That's what I enjoy about new units is the Scenario possibilities they bring up. Sounds like we have a lot of VULCAN inspired ones pending.

That's what's rolling in my head. Basically the vulcan and its patient would have to be caught in a salient. Enemy GEVs rush in from two sides while the vulcan tries to patch and then cover the retreat of a hobbled MkV.

...GEVs are attack 2 range 2, so 2 of them (= attack strength 4) combine firing on a D4 tow hitch would be an attack of 1:1 unless I'm missing something.

2/3s of the time you miss. Miss or hit, the vulcan responds by dropping the tow, charging one of your GEVs, and melting it with all the guns. Your next shot is a lone GEV at 1:2 vs the hitch or a gun. That GEV will be similarly dispatched. Even if you hit the hitch the vulcan can still repair the ogre and get it moving again. Any plan where you lose your hat...

If you come in with six GEVs for three 1:1 shots your battle will go far better vs D4. Surviving GEVs can pick away at the vulcan.

But the first target should be the vulcan's guns or treads, not the hitch. A surviving pack of GEVs can chip away at the vulcan while keeping out of range. If the vulcan stays hitched the GEVs are safe that much earlier.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by dwalend

The hitch is just as important, but much more vulnerable. The barrel of a main gun has one end out in the wind. A tow hitch will be joining the vulcan to the towed ogre. You need a shot to twist the vulcan one direction and the towed ogre in the other, to torque the joint. It's an easy penetrator shot in the ground, under the joint. It's a lot like a WWII torpedo detonating under the ship, to lift it and break the keel.

That's a great point...nice. Thanks, didn't see it. Ok, I still think it would be armored and not fragile per say, but what you describe would put it back into a vulnerable category...unless, of course the designers engineered the tow mechanism to be "anti-torque", which now I'm thinking they certainly would have anticipated that, even if I did not...lol

[QUOTE=dwalend;2041569]The towed ogre can't move on it's own - zero treads. If the treads ride on a belt, likely one of the four belts is broken. That ogre is likely being dragged on it's belly. That'll dig a furrow as easy to target as a jet's contrail.
This raises some interesting stuff. What are the categories of a Disabled Unit? That is to say, what are the different tread unit damage manifestations and how much does it matter for the game play?

Are some of them seized up, missing or otherwise not moving?

Are all of them free moving, as if the tread units were all in neutral gear?

Is it a combination of these two?

FanMade suggestion that would make all of this moot:

The VULCAN can deploy two Tread Unit skids onto the field, then pull the unit to be towed onto them on top of the skids with the tread units lining up on top of them which are then secured at both ends.

This makes it not matter how the tread units are damaged, the tow will be consistent no matter what using these skids. They will also maximize tow speed because no damaged tread unit component will be touching the ground as it's being towed.
So, you could say the skids explain how it's done, and we'll keep the tow speeds, or maybe the skids will increase the atm tow speeds...or this is all the meandering exploration of a OGRE unit that has nothing whatsoever of merit.

Also, in the original Tow Rules, it actually mattered how many tread units were left on the towed unit because the more it had, the faster it could be towed. It seems the new rules have streamlined this to either can't move at all to full movement, and nothing in between is relevant to game play. It's all exclusively based on the towed units size now. Not that I think that's a bad thing. It's certainly easier this way.
______________________________________

Originally Posted by dwalend

The target area is far bigger than an AP gun, active defenses are all that can save it. D1.

Agreed, I was just pointing out about the surrounding area that would help destroy something like an AP Gun if a shot near missed it because there is something nearby to help throw damage towards it anyways. Still not sure about D1...seems way too fragile, but then D4 may be way too much...

Originally Posted by dwalend

That's committing your vulcan to sit still for three turns vs dragging at M1 to the edge of the map for 15 turns. Getting the ogre moving on its own, then using the vulcan's speed and guns to take out raiding GEVs is a better tactic.

A Mark5 Size 8 is a -2 VULCAN Movement Modifier, would be a VULCAN move of M2 not M1? I may be seeing this wrong, sorry.

Originally Posted by dwalend

The better strategic option is to secure the area and make the recovery at leisure. Send in the vulcan, fix a tread to get the ogre to M1, split the escorts, then move on to the next chore, or at least get that irreplaceable strategic asset out of harm's way. If there's a credible threat, best to save the vulcan and try the salvage operation again later.

The VULCAN is adding a seriously cool twist on the OGREverse and units...

Originally Posted by dwalend

Or you could just let it tow with one of those creepy hands. It's still a tactical and strategic faux pas.

Now that's interesting! Can a VULCAN tow a unit using it's big hands? Doing so would mean the VULCAN would be pulling it and thus moving backwards, which works, it would just look funny, which totally suits their "personality".
...which begs the question, can a VULCAN push a unit using it's big hands, like towing in reverse? Can it Push-Tow using it's big hands AND tow another Disabled unit normally behind it?
__________________________________________________ ________

Originally Posted by dwalend

That's what's rolling in my head. Basically the vulcan and its patient would have to be caught in a salient. Enemy GEVs rush in from two sides while the vulcan tries to patch and then cover the retreat of a hobbled MkV.

2/3s of the time you miss. Miss or hit, the vulcan responds by dropping the tow, charging one of your GEVs, and melting it with all the guns. Your next shot is a lone GEV at 1:2 vs the hitch or a gun. That GEV will be similarly dispatched. Even if you hit the hitch the vulcan can still repair the ogre and get it moving again. Any plan where you lose your hat...

If you come in with six GEVs for three 1:1 shots your battle will go far better vs D4. Surviving GEVs can pick away at the vulcan.

But the first target should be the vulcan's guns or treads, not the hitch. A surviving pack of GEVs can chip away at the vulcan while keeping out of range. If the vulcan stays hitched the GEVs are safe that much earlier.

For sure this dynamic needs to be looked at from all directions and balanced. There are a lot of moving parts and the VULCAN is a unique unit and it's causing a lot of interesting things to be noticed because of it's increased exposure in the OGREverse.
________________________________________

As valuable and rare an asset as the VULCAN is, should it have Stealth Technology? Would it be worth it? Initially I want to give it a big thumbs up...
________________________________________

New FanMade uniterated Scenario:

TAG TEAM

A VULCAN has been captured by the enemy and COMBINE is in pursuit...with another VULCAN! (Maybe this VULCAN is Stealth equipped?)...maybe the VULCAN has broken official prime directives and is following it's own motivations by attempting the rescue by itself. Maybe something really bad happened to it's chain of command, and is taking matters into it's own ...hands...I can't help it... XD

This Scenario would have an interesting twist in that a VULCAN is the unit that needs recovered, by another VULCAN. Do they know each other??? lol How deep are the VULCAN ties that bind? How far would a VULCAN go for another VULCAN? lol

All joking aside, this seems like it would be fun, and could introduce some of that VULCAN humor into the Scenario and help establish some additional background fluff for them. One point needing addressed and adding some cool back ground fluff would be exactly how did Paneurope capture the VULCAN and especially with what, as they do not have anything equivalent? (Which, I don't care for, I think they should have some sort of VULCANesque unit, maybe just not as automated or techy)?
_______________________________________

Can we get any additional feedback on this cool topic from more official sources and what is being kicked around so far?[/spoiler]

[Dave Crowell]

I think D3 is reasonable for the hitch/tow bar. What really matters as far as attacks targeting the hitch is whether or not they broke the tow, not what they did to the hitch itself.

If a Vulcan can push a unit can it pick up and carry small, light units like light tanks or LGEVs? Maybe tuck them under its arm like a football... Doesn't that give a fun mental picture?

[Dave Crowell]

Can a Vulcan assume control of a disabled armour unit and use it as either a combat drone or duckling drone? If so does the vehicle recover from being disabled normally?

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

That's a great point...nice. Thanks, didn't see it. Ok, I still think it would be armored and not fragile per say, but what you describe would put it back into a vulnerable category...unless, of course the designers engineered the tow mechanism to be "anti-torque", which now I'm thinking they certainly would have anticipated that, even if I did not...lol

The next layer in the puzzle is "what would the engineers have anticipated?" Combine history has them successfully landing and holding North Africa, Iberia, and a pocket in the lowlands early in the Last War. For that they'd be able to hold the field and patch ogres. No need for an armored tow because they could hold the field or push the line back to keep the vulcan safe. (And they'd likely not bother with a tow. They'd let the vulcan do the repair and move on.)

Later in the war, when the Combine is being rolled back, would the designers be allowed to be more pessimistic? Would they be allowed to admit that the NAC forces wouldn't be available to hold the field?

The vulcan already has SBs on it. Could be they suspected trouble all along, or they needed the right congressman to vote to build vulcans and his district built SBs.

This raises some interesting stuff. What are the categories of a Disabled Unit?

Any armor unit disabled by fire, recovers after surviving an enemy's fire phase. GEV disabled by terrain, recovers after making a die roll. Stuck tanks, trucks, and ogres. Ogres with no treads. I think that's the whole list.

Are some of them seized up, missing or otherwise not moving? Are all of them free moving, as if the tread units were all in neutral gear? Is it a combination of these two?

I don't think it matters much. The vulcan is dragging the ogre while trying to jink to stay safe. What happens when the vulcan drags an ogre through rubble and it high-centers?

The VULCAN can deploy two Tread Unit skids onto the field, then pull the unit to be towed onto them on top of the skids with the tread units lining up on top of them which are then secured at both ends.

Dragging a huge sled with a giant tank through mud, forests, rubble, and cities?

(Can a vulcan tow an ogre underwater? That seems like a malicious question for Drew.)

Also, in the original Tow Rules, it actually mattered how many tread units were left on the towed unit because the more it had, the faster it could be towed. It seems the new rules have streamlined this to either can't move at all to full movement, and nothing in between is relevant to game play. It's all exclusively based on the towed units size now. Not that I think that's a bad thing. It's certainly easier this way.
...
A Mark5 Size 8 is a -2 VULCAN Movement Modifier, would be a VULCAN move of M2 not M1? I may be seeing this wrong, sorry.

No. I was waiting for the right bit to push back on that. A vulcan dragging an ogre bigger than itself with zero treads remaining at M2 seems ambitious. M1 is about 22 kph after straightening the curves and jinks and doubling back hidden by the one-hex movement. While dragging an ogre bigger than the vulcan over at-best broken ground. M1 seems generous.

I think that should be streamlined further. M1 while towing. No table in the rules to map from size to movement. KISS.

[Towing with the hands] Now that's interesting! Can a VULCAN tow a unit using it's big hands? Doing so would mean the VULCAN would be pulling it and thus moving backwards, which works, it would just look funny, which totally suits their "personality".
...which begs the question, can a VULCAN push a unit using it's big hands, like towing in reverse? Can it Push-Tow using it's big hands AND tow another Disabled unit normally behind it?

Why add a tow hitch if it can tow with its hands? Which loops back to the tactical and strategic value of towing...

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

If a Vulcan can push a unit can it pick up and carry small, light units like light tanks or LGEVs? Maybe tuck them under its arm like a football... Doesn't that give a fun mental picture?

...a favorite pastime game of VULCANs when off duty. "VULCAN BALL" lol

Originally Posted by dwalend

The next layer in the puzzle is "what would the engineers have anticipated?" Combine history has them successfully landing and holding North Africa, Iberia, and a pocket in the lowlands early in the Last War. For that they'd be able to hold the field and patch ogres. No need for an armored tow because they could hold the field or push the line back to keep the vulcan safe. (And they'd likely not bother with a tow. They'd let the vulcan do the repair and move on.)

You make a good case for no tow.

Originally Posted by dwalend

The vulcan already has SBs on it. Could be they suspected trouble all along, or they needed the right congressman to vote to build vulcans and his district built SBs.

haha nice

Originally Posted by dwalend

I don't think it matters much. The vulcan is dragging the ogre while trying to jink to stay safe. What happens when the vulcan drags an ogre through rubble and it high-centers?

I'm thinking they couldn't...you'd need some terrain restrictions when towing, whatever they would be. No Rubble is a good start.

Originally Posted by dwalend

Dragging a huge sled with a giant tank through mud, forests, rubble, and cities?

Mis-quote...it's not a single huge sled, but rather two separate narrow sleds if you will that would fit within the footprint of an Ogres tread units left and right sides. It would be adjustable-telescoping and made of some cool new material that causes less surface friction than usual. Such a tow device would greatly benefit a VULCAN...or, ok, maybe it could be a single sled, the concept is the same. It's a fact towing a object on a flat sled is more efficient than without the sled. Again, you could have terrain restrictions when using it, like maybe only open terrain or...water...lol

Originally Posted by dwalend

(Can a vulcan tow an ogre underwater? That seems like a malicious question for Drew.)

haha...way to go man

Originally Posted by dwalend

No. I was waiting for the right bit to push back on that. A vulcan dragging an ogre bigger than itself with zero treads remaining at M2 seems ambitious. M1 is about 22 kph after straightening the curves and jinks and doubling back hidden by the one-hex movement. While dragging an ogre bigger than the vulcan over at-best broken ground. M1 seems generous.

I think that should be streamlined further. M1 while towing. No table in the rules to map from size to movement. KISS.

It should be noted the VULCAN has a M4 because it has been partially gutted and refitted with VULCAN components on a Mark3B Chassis. I would think the "engine" was modified as well, the torque, ect to facilitate better towing.

Seems way too KISS to say a Mark6 can be towed at the same rate as a Superheavy though. But to scale it down for everything, I can definitely see M1 max for any unit being a solid rule. It would be saying that a Superheavy would be towable faster and a Mark6 slower, but for simplicities sake, they meet at M1.

Originally Posted by dwalend

Why add a tow hitch if it can tow with its hands? Which loops back to the tactical and strategic value of towing...

Because this way it can tow TWO units at the same time and it would look really, really funny. I was kind of joking about that though, but it may have some relevance.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

...a favorite pastime game of VULCANs when off duty. "VULCAN BALL" lol

Thermonuclear kung-fu slap-down.

I'm thinking they couldn't...you'd need some terrain restrictions when towing, whatever they would be. No Rubble is a good start.

I'd reuse something we already have - truck movement restrictions.

But that's where the vulcan's designers get chewed out. If the ogre drives into town, then loses its last tread in the same barrage that rubbles the town then the vulcan can't tow it back out.

Mis-quote...it's not a single huge sled, but rather two separate narrow sleds if you will that would fit within the footprint of an Ogres tread units left and right sides. It would be adjustable-telescoping and made of some cool new material that causes less surface friction than usual.

Sorry for the misquote. This kinda sounds like a Dr. Suess ambient vehicle to me. Ogre tech is from this 1970s-inspired manufacturing dystopia. The engineers get tactical nuclear weapons, fusion-powered vehicles, BPC, rail guns, lasers, great ducted fans, and very strange AI. GURPS Ogre hints at monowire penetrators. The only small-scale, fine tools are point-defense weapons and Ninja stealth tech. It all comes from huge factory complexes. Everything else either doesn't exist or is too vulnerable to the nukes. If the engineers could build this sled and have it on a nuclear battlefield they'd probably build all the tanks as monopods instead of belts with treads.

It should be noted the VULCAN has a M4 because it has been partially gutted and refitted with VULCAN components on a Mark3B Chassis. I would think the "engine" was modified as well, the torque, ect to facilitate better towing.

More likely they grabbed the MkIV's drive train.

Seems way too KISS to say a Mark6 can be towed at the same rate as a Superheavy though. But to scale it down for everything, I can definitely see M1 max for any unit being a solid rule. It would be saying that a Superheavy would be towable faster and a Mark6 slower, but for simplicities sake, they meet at M1.

I don't see a lot of situations where a MkIII or smaller gets towed under fire, already stated.

But I don't even think it's that. Dragging a heavily damaged tank over broken terrain on an intentionally unpredictable route while under fire is going to be tedious. Ever hook up a trailer to a pickup truck and take it on an unmaintained road? It didn't matter if I was pulling a pile of brush, a hobie cat, or a four-horse trailer. Every pothole and every rut made me cringe. I can't imagine dragging something through a nuclear battlefield. It'd be like pulling a road grader.

I think M1 is the maximum speed, and is pushing reasonable limits. It probably occupies a vulcan arm even with a hitch to coax the towed ogre along. Maybe the arm gives the ogre a hug whenever incoming nukes are too close.

It sure makes the scenarios easier to write.

[Dave Crowell]

Ok, the duckling rule. I'm not sure I entirely see the point. Why would I want to push along 16 disabled armor units when I could have taken 16 regular armor units instead? Yes, those armor units risk being disabled for a turn, but ducklings already functioning as disabled have a higher risk of being destroyed in combat except for the ones under active control.

I can see the utility of a Vulcan taking control of a disabled unit to allow it to move and fight for a turn when it otherwise wouldn't. I just don't see the utility of keeping that control after the armor unit would have recovered.

At the risk of adding complexity, if there was a chance that the Vulcan could take control of a "destroyed" armor unit and fight it as duckling, or start with drone duckling units at a reduced cost from the begining of the scenario the rule would make more sense to me.

The same question applies to the Ninja's drone channels and use of ducklings.

[offsides]

To me the whole duckling rule is there for scenario-specific stuff. For example, there's a Vulcan repairing/getting repaired at a depot that comes under attack. It has to grab as much uncrewed armor as it can and make a run for it to try and get them out of harm's way. Or maybe a Vulcan was bringing newly repaired armor units back to the front (where surviving crews would take over on them) and got ambushed by a recon in force probe. Yes, if they had crews you'd much rather have them fully operational and fight, but you can't always get what you want :)

Realistically almost all of the Vulcan's various tricks are about either scenario-specific or strategic moves, which means they don't necessarily translate into the best gameplay rules, and certainly not general-purpose ones. But that doesn't mean they can't be useful in those specific situations...

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by offsides

To me the whole duckling rule is there for scenario-specific stuff. For example, there's a Vulcan repairing/getting repaired at a depot that comes under attack. It has to grab as much uncrewed armor as it can and make a run for it to try and get them out of harm's way. Or maybe a Vulcan was bringing newly repaired armor units back to the front (where surviving crews would take over on them) and got ambushed by a recon in force probe. Yes, if they had crews you'd much rather have them fully operational and fight, but you can't always get what you want :)

Realistically almost all of the Vulcan's various tricks are about either scenario-specific or strategic moves, which means they don't necessarily translate into the best gameplay rules, and certainly not general-purpose ones. But that doesn't mean they can't be useful in those specific situations...

I had the good fortune a few years ago to hear first-hand some "Steve-wisdom" about how he viewed AU remote control. I have a feeling the duckling idea was born out of those musings about the Vulcan being able to take control of units to better facilitate coordination of efforts (i.e., computers can manage things better that humans can).