Ignoring Armor once and for all.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I understand what the “opposing camp” is saying and I understand where they come from. However, if Hardened allows the countering of a Cosmic-level enhancement, it is the only mundane enhancement that gives that protection.

What makes you think Hardened 6 is a mundane enhancement?

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Anthony

What makes you think Hardened 6 is a mundane enhancement?

Because at no point does it mention "Cosmic." Hence, it is mundane. Every other enhancement that defeates Cosmic mentions it. Hardened doesn't, therefore, it is mundane.

What makes you think that it isn't mundane? Where is your example that would indicate that it is a Cosmic enhancement?

[Mark Skarr]

Here are a few examples of where they mention Cosmic in the Advantage:

Originally Posted by Powers p. 73

As part of a cosmic power, See Invisible defeats all power-based invisibility, including cosmic invisibility.

Example of a Cosmic power and specifically notes that it defeates cosmic invisibility.

Originally Posted by Powers p. 84

Godlike beings often have the “irresistible attack” level of Cosmic (p. B103). Victims get no benefit from advantages such as Fearlessness and Unfazeable (unless those traits are Cosmic), and suffer their tormentor’s choice of Awe, Confusion, or Terror if they fail their Fright Check.

Example of Irresistable Attack functioning in a different method and specifically stating that only Cosmic protects against it.

Originally Posted by Powers P.97

Cosmic: You can neutralize any power, regardless of source. You can only affect one source at a time, but you can attack the same victim repeatedly to affect multiple sources. You still can’t drain Talents, or advantages without power modifiers. Cosmic doesn’t automatically overcome resistance. It provides incredible scope, but your target always gets a chance to resist. +300%.

Specifically notes that you can neutralize any power, regardless of source. Which meshes with the descriptions of Cosmic in the rest of the book.

Originally Posted by Powers p. 103

From Melee Attack:
Those that must touch bare skin also have Contact Agent (-30%), while attacks that circumvent DR should add Malediction 1 (+100%) if resistance is possible, Cosmic (+300%) if not.

Looks to me, like that says that resistance is not possible if Cosmic is added.

However, I think this really is the kicker:

Originally Posted by Powers p. 118

To unconditionally avoid protection requires the “irresistible attack” version of Cosmic (p. B103) – and even then, defenses with Cosmic can still interfere, if the GM allows them.
(Emphasis from the book!)

That's pretty darn specific! That explicitly states that only defenses with Cosmic can interfere with Cosmic: Irresistible Attack.

[cccwebs]

I see a lot of referencing to the cosmic power set from the powers book. What Mark Skarr seems to be overlooking is that all of his arguments referencing that particular book deal with creating power sets (and/or power tiers) and using power modifiers, which while are enhancements and limitations are not the same as the wild advantage. Power modifiers and tiers are an optional rule set, one which can be used to create the "irrestable attack". Sorry Mark, but your argument focuses on the wording from the Powers book, which are optional rules, where as the opposition is focusing on the basic books (so in effect, we are both correct depending on if you are using the optional rules as outlined in Powers). For the sake of discussion, I will focus on the Basic set rules as much as possible, since the threadjacking is about whether or not Hardened can interact with Cosmic Irrestable Attack as outlined in the Basic set.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

That's pretty darn specific! That explicitly states that only defenses with Cosmic can interfere with Cosmic: Irresistible Attack.

Hmm, I don't see anywhere in that statement that only Cosmic defenses can interfere with them. It says that "and even then, defenses with Cosmic can still interfere, if the GM allows them." This is not the same as saying "and even then, only defenses with Cosmic can still interfere, if the GM allows them." One word makes a huge difference.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Example of a Cosmic power and specifically notes that it defeates cosmic invisibility.

Again, you reference a power set and not the wild advantage, but even so, you leave out the overiding text from Damage Resistance Hardened which includes "Ignores DR" and the text from Cosmic Irresistable Attack which also states that a so modified innate attack "ignores DR".

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Example of Irresistable Attack functioning in a different method and specifically stating that only Cosmic protects against it.

Yep, but that example is not about an innate attack and even though Fearlesness and Unfazeable don't add protection, the character still gets a resistance roll.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Specifically notes that you can neutralize any power, regardless of source. Which meshes with the descriptions of Cosmic in the rest of the book.

It sure is nice that you can quote lots of Cosmic wording from the Powers book, but this is still not relevant to the fact that for an innate attack, the +300% Cosmic Irresistable Attack explicitly means that the attack "ignores DR" and that the Hardened enhancement for Damage Resistance explicitly includes "ignores DR" as a armor penetration stage it can modify.

Looks to me, like that says that resistance is not possible if Cosmic is added.

Yep, it circumvents DR alright. Of course it doesn't say that it circumvents Hardened DR, just that it circumvents DR. So it can "ignores DR" on unmodified DR all it wants. Of course, Hardened DR will adjust the armor penetration stage by the appropriate levels.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

The entire "defense" of hardened countering Cosmic:Irresistable Attack lies in a PM from Kromm to cccwebs.
This means one of three things:
1. The PM to cccwebs has been misinterpreted (no malicious intent infered).
2. Kromm was in error.
3. Cosmic powers, from both Characters and in Powers, as well as Damage Resistance need to be heavily errata'd.

No, the entire defense comes from the simple fact that Irrestable Attack indicates that a so modified innate attack "ignores DR' and that Hardened specifically mentions "Ignores DR". This has not been changed in any errata, nor has the F.A.Q. been updated to indicate otherwise. Kromm's PM only confirms that the book deas in fact indicate that. This means one of three things:
1. The PM from Kromm is not being misinterpereted, but since it doesn't support your argument you wish to claim it is.
2. Kromm was not in error, unless he decides something different and then indicates so, but you'd like him to be in errror so you can support your argument.
3. "Cosmic" powers from the Powers book are either power sets or power tiers and are thus optional rules which make some modifications. Powers (the book) also discusses the difference between power modifiers and wild advantages. The advantages in the Basic books are "wild" advantages and thus can superceed any power created using the rules from Powers (the book) that you keep presented.

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I will focus on the Basic set rules as much as possible, since the threadjacking is about whether or not Hardened can interact with Cosmic Irrestable Attack as outlined in the Basic set.

This is my thread and its not really threadjacked yet. No one has really diverted my thread in any direction I didn't want it to go, so feel free to keep debating. Cosmic, hardened, etcetera, that's what I'm trying to learn about.

[Obbas]

Time to switch sides for a while... :)
someone quoted from powers p.101, about cosmic, but I thought I'd bring the last paragraph there into the debate, since it was overlooked..
Powers p.101:
"Cosmic vs. Cosmic: When Cosmic abilities conflict, handle it as if neither side has cosmic. For instance, DR with Cosmic subtracts from "irresistable attacks with Cosmic."

This last sentence seems to indicate that DR without cosmic does not..

[naloth]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

<snip> Power modifiers and tiers are an optional rule set, one which can be used to create the "irrestable attack". Sorry Mark, but your argument focuses on the wording from the Powers book, which are optional rules, where as the opposition is focusing on the basic books (so in effect, we are both correct depending on if you are using the optional rules as outlined in Powers).

While you can call the book 'optional', it's pretty clear that is expands on what Cosmic means and how to calculate the values. There's no room for interpretation: if you're using the Powers rules for Cosmic than Hardened shouldn't apply.

Again, you reference a power set and not the wild advantage, but even so, you leave out the overiding text from Damage Resistance Hardened which includes "Ignores DR" and the text from Cosmic Irresistable Attack which also states that a so modified innate attack "ignores DR".

Of course, you're including Malediction, Sense-Based, Respiratory, and every other 'ignores DR' ability under this bizarre idea. Not that any of this is a new argument. I participated in the original thread and it's the same issue.

Cosmic:Irresistible Force shouldn't be affected as it's not an Armor Divisor. Armor divisors are separately noted and documented, and Hardened only works on armor divisors.

Kromm treats Cosmic:IF as an Armor Divisor, but that's something that isn't in the text of the basic book. "Ignores DR" isn't an armor divisor unless you want this ruling to apply to all the other penetration modifiers that also ignore DR (incomplete list above).

I also consider it a bad idea. Knowing how armor divisors were using in 3rd edition (high tech equipment, force fields), it's going to imply that spiritual, ghostly, and otherwise DR ignoring attacks ('I teleport something inside you doing 3d impaling') just cannot be built.

As a GM, it's also invalidated a social contract that I use for Cosmic:IR attacks: low damage because you don't have to worry about 'normal' DR.

Wolverine's claws, for example, might 'cut through anything' effectively giving them Cosmic:IR and a relatively low damage amount (3dish?). If Hardened DR is going to work there could be some relatively low DR things that he cannot cut through at all.

It sure is nice that you can quote lots of Cosmic wording from the Powers book, but this is still not relevant to the fact that for an innate attack, the +300% Cosmic Irresistable Attack explicitly means that the attack "ignores DR" and that the Hardened enhancement for Damage Resistance explicitly includes "ignores DR" as a armor penetration stage it can modify.

There's something to be said for ignoring text while criticizing others for doing the same.

Hardened works on armor divisors only, not any enhancement that has the text 'ignores DR' in the description. 'Ignores DR' is a possible armor divisor that doesn't appear to be priced in the basic book. Look under Armor Divisor and see for yourself.


Yep, it circumvents DR alright. Of course it doesn't say that it circumvents Hardened DR, just that it circumvents DR. So it can "ignores DR" on unmodified DR all it wants. Of course, Hardened DR will adjust the armor penetration stage by the appropriate levels.

No, the entire defense comes from the simple fact that Irrestable Attack indicates that a so modified innate attack "ignores DR' and that Hardened specifically mentions "Ignores DR". This has not been changed in any errata, nor has the F.A.Q. been updated to indicate otherwise. Kromm's PM only confirms that the book deas in fact indicate that. This means one of three things:

I could quote things that Kromm has gotten wrong, but I consider that unproductive.

I suggest a 4th option: Kromm has decided that Cosmic:IF should be an armor divisor even though there's no text describing it as such in the basic book. That's errata, and it disagrees with how things work in Powers, but he's the Line Editor so it's up to him.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by naloth

Of course, you're including Malediction, Sense-Based, Respiratory, and every other 'ignores DR' ability under this bizarre idea. Not that any of this is a new argument. I participated in the original thread and it's the same issue.

Actually, Malediction doesn't "ignores DR", but it specifically states "the target's DR has no effect on the attack's damage" (Basic p106). This removes DR from the equation entirely, unlike Irrestible Attack which specifically states "an Innate Attack which ignores DR" (Basic p.102). Sense-Based is a different modifier, because it isn't targeting where the DR is covering but yes it does use the "ignores DR" wording (it also allows for someone with Protected Vision [+5] to ignore all damage from a 1000d (burn, vision-based +150%) [+12,500] attack. Respiratory Agent is very specific in that it states "it ignores all DR" (Basic p.108). So, short of Sense-Based (which is more used by abilities which offer a resistance roll vs striaght damage with no resistance), I don't see where your examples are truly relevant.

Originally Posted by naloth

Cosmic:Irresistible Force shouldn't be affected as it's not an Armor Divisor. Armor divisors are separately noted and documented, and Hardened only works on armor divisors.

Kromm treats Cosmic:IF as an Armor Divisor, but that's something that isn't in the text of the basic book. "Ignores DR" isn't an armor divisor unless you want this ruling to apply to all the other penetration modifiers that also ignore DR (incomplete list above).

Funny, the book is pretty clear that the armor divisor value of "Ignores DR" exists and is modified by Hardened (Basic p.46). The books are also very specific about Armor Divisors (which the book has already included "Ignores DR" from Basic p.46) and the remaining "penetration modifiers" (Basic p.378). Irrestible Attack isn't listed on Basic p.379 under that "penetration modifier" list (those listed are Blood Agent, Contact Agent, Follow-Up, Respiratory Agent, and Sense-Based), nor is it listed out on Basic p.416 under Special Penetration Modifiers, nor is it listed as a "penetration modifier" under it's description even though it does state that it can't be combined with other "penetration modifiers". So, this is pretty clear that Irresistible Attack is an Armor Divisor (which yes is a type of "penetration modifier") and thus would be effected by Hardened.

Originally Posted by naloth

Hardened works on armor divisors only, not any enhancement that has the text 'ignores DR' in the description. 'Ignores DR' is a possible armor divisor that doesn't appear to be priced in the basic book. Look under Armor Divisor and see for yourself.

Again, "Ignores DR" is listed as an armor divisor on Basic p.46, and the cost is listed on Basic p.103 as +300%. After all, using your assumption, 100 is also listed on Basic p.46 as an armor divisor but doesn't have a cost under Armor Divisor (Basic p.102), so should it also not then be effected by Hardened?

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Except that Hardened doesn't reduce the Armor Divisor by a number, but by a stage, and for GURPS the next stage from "Armor Divisor infinity" (which is "ignores DR") is an Armor Divisor of 100.

I have a problem with that. The maximum may be 100, but why does Sam, the hardened armour wearing clown (he's not a good clown), get to buy 20% enhancement to virtually neuter the effect of my 300% enhancement?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I have a problem with that. The maximum may be 100, but why does Sam, the hardened armour wearing clown (he's not a good clown), get to buy 20% enhancement to virtually neuter the effect of my 300% enhancement?

Huh?

Reducing it from "infinite" to "100" doesn't neuter your attack. It means that Sam probably has a DR of 1 versus your attack instead of whatever DR he had. If he wants to have a DR of 2 against it, he'd have to pay 200 points just for the privilege of the Hardened enhancement on his DR 200.