Ship skills...

[cosmicfish]

Trying to sort out the various ship skills, and it seems like there is a gap. Here are the skills as I understand them:

Boating / Submarine: Actually steering the vessel in question.
Shiphandling: Commanding the vessel in question.
Seamanship / Submariner: General vessel operations not specifically related to either steering or command.

So here is my question: What skill would I use to steer a large ship, like a battleship?

Boating only covers small vessels, Submarine covers ships on the same scale as a battleship, but what covers large surface vessels?

I was assuming Shiphandling, until I noticed that Shiphandling (Submarine) is distinct from Submarine (Large Sub) which covers the actual piloting of the vessel. Shiphandling is the IQ-based skill of the Captain or OOD, it is NOT the DX-based skill of the helmsman. So what skill should a helmsman have in place of Boating or Submarine?

[shadowjack]

Crewman skill, p. B185.

This skill also lets you steer the vessel. It is easier than Piloting, Submarine, and similar skills because it only includes knowledge of how to steer. Specialists handle such activities as plotting courses and operating sensors. These experts report to the captain, who in turn tells you how to maneuver. Make a DX-based skill roll whenever you take the helm – but note that your effective skill cannot exceed your captain’s Shiphandling skill (p. 220).

[Ulzgoroth]

Crewman, which explicitly does include steering the ship, albeit only under the direction of someone with Shiphandling.

EDIT: However it is rather curious that large surface ships are the only type of vessel for which no Pilot-equivalent skill exists. Airships, submarines, and spaceships all can be run either by shiphandling + crewman or by a pilot with Pilot or Submarine, but there's no skill that does the same for surface vessels too big for Boating.

[Blind Mapmaker]

I would have said definitely Shiphandling, but checking Supporting Cast: Age of Sail Pirate Crew, I noticed that only the captain and the quartermaster have the skill. Further reading (B185) shows that DX-based Crewman is the skill for steering a ship (zeppelin, whatever). That seems kind of counter-intuitive, but there you go according to the RAW.

Edit: Ninjaed twice and more concisely at that.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

I would have said definitely Shiphandling, but checking Supporting Cast: Age of Sail Pirate Crew, I noticed that only the captain and the quartermaster have the skill.

Only two people capable of standing a watch on board? That seems like a really bad idea.

[cosmicfish]

Then if Crewman covers steering the vessel, why does Submarine (Large Sub) exist as a skill? Shouldn't that be covered by Submariner?

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Only two people capable of standing a watch on board? That seems like a really bad idea.

It seems like Crewman is meant to be the generic "enlisted" skill and Shiphandling is meant to be the generic "officer" skill, but a pirate crew would not likely have a formal training path and it isn't that unreasonable for there to be a shortage of people with Shiphandling. Conversely, I would expect Shiphandling to be the primary professional skill of officers in most professional navies or maritime groups.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It seems like Crewman is meant to be the generic "enlisted" skill and Shiphandling is meant to be the generic "officer" skill, but a pirate crew would not likely have a formal training path and it isn't that unreasonable for there to be a shortage of people with Shiphandling. Conversely, I would expect Shiphandling to be the primary professional skill of officers in most professional navies or maritime groups.

That gives me an idea. Crewman is limited by the average crewman skill and Shipphandling. Mostly that is for an entire ship.
But with multiple officers you can break it down to departments or sections, each with thier own officer and own average crewman rating.
So you could have a great engineering team even with a mediocre Captain.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Then if Crewman covers steering the vessel, why does Submarine (Large Sub) exist as a skill? Shouldn't that be covered by Submariner?

Submariner, like Pilot, is a complete operation skill. Exactly. Crewman is not a complete operation skill, it covers performing helm operations under direction, but doesn't cover determining what helm operations should be performed.

The real question, I think, is why there is isn't a complete operation skill for surface ships.

EDIT: I mean, it's not actually possible to singlehandedly operate some ships. A sailing frigate, or a galley for that matter, absolutely requires the activity of multiple crew members to maneuver properly. But there's no reason that a very large modern ship couldn't be run entirely from a single position.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It seems like Crewman is meant to be the generic "enlisted" skill and Shiphandling is meant to be the generic "officer" skill, but a pirate crew would not likely have a formal training path and it isn't that unreasonable for there to be a shortage of people with Shiphandling.

The consequences of sailing that way are severe, though. Either your two watch-standers are each standing 12 hours a day, or you're spending part of each day at the mercy of any nautical emergency that might arise. And if either of them should become incapacitated you're really in deep trouble.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Conversely, I would expect Shiphandling to be the primary professional skill of officers in most professional navies or maritime groups.

I would say so, yes. At least for 'command track' officers.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Submariner, like Pilot, is a complete operation skill. Exactly. Crewman is not a complete operation skill, it covers performing helm operations under direction, but doesn't cover determining what helm operations should be performed.

The real question, I think, is why there is isn't a complete operation skill for surface ships.

Which is the point of this thread. If submarines merit a complete operation skill then surface ships should as well. And if they do not then Submarine should not be a skill.

Incidentally, having Submarine for the operation skill and Submariner as the crew skill just kits confusing. Too close in names.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The consequences of sailing that way are severe, though. Either your two watch-standers are each standing 12 hours a day, or you're spending part of each day at the mercy of any nautical emergency that might arise. And if either of them should become incapacitated you're really in deep trouble.

Hey, yell at Nicholas Lovell, not me!

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I would say so, yes. At least for 'command track' officers.

This all came up because I was trying to figure out the basic skills of USN Surface Warfare and Submarine Warfare Officers. It seems that Shiphandling is their primary skill, but I agree that engineering officers (for example) are unlikely to need it.