Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-11-2018, 05:58 PM   #131
luguvalium
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
Hey, I just listed the first bunch of talents that came off the top of my head -- I'm not trying to push Torture into TFT :)
Zot- You've done a great job listing many different situations that could have talents, but I think I would only rarely use them as a GM. Using these situations to create examples of how these situations could be done with existing talents ( and then creating only the talents that are not covered by others ) would be a help for players. For example, I don't see Intimidation ( maybe based on a contest of ST ) being not covered by existing talents. I would see torture as just intimidation against a weakened opponent.
luguvalium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 06:11 PM   #132
luguvalium
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post

Some people have Sex Appeal, Charisma, or Acute Hearing, and others don't
I think its worth considering if some talents, like these are only possible to get as a beginning character.

Similarly some people seem to have a knack for learning languages when they are young, if if there was a discount on multiple languages, then having it only for beginning characters may make sense too.
luguvalium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 07:05 PM   #133
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by luguvalium View Post
I think its worth considering if some talents, like these are only possible to get as a beginning character.
This would channel players into particular kinds of character design (new characters know more languages and are more attractive than they otherwise would be, have lower attributes and fewer other skills, etc.). The question is whether that channeling is a good thing. I don't really think it is: I'd rather let the player choose the character arc they prefer.

Another issue is that if you make decisions early that can limit the character later, what impact does that have on a beginner generating a new character?

OK, someone's appearance suddenly getting better needs some explanation, and maybe should be foreshadowed somehow, but players and GMs working together can come up with some kind of explanation.
David Bofinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 12:19 AM   #134
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Crowell View Post
A thought or question about Talents/Skills in TFT: Are they exclusive abilities? That is to say if you do not have the Talent can you not do the thing? So if I do not have the Boating talent I cannot row a boat across the harbour.

Or do Talents give you a bonus to do the thing and give you extra skill and proficiency? If I do not have the Boating talent I can row across the harbour, but it will be slow and clumsy. If I have the Boating talent I can row gracefully across the harbour, know about different types of boats, can make small repairs, etc.

If in every case you cannot do the thing if you do not have the Talent then players are going to chafe that their character concept requires too many Talent slots. See the discussion above about building Aragorn in TFT.

Perhaps a note could be made about which Talents are required to do the thing at all. Physiker for example.
For MOST talents (especially physical ones like weapons talents, swimming or running, for example), we always considered it proper to allow a 4/DX (or whatever attribute was appropriate) to accomplish the task without the talent. For CERTAIN talents (fencing, physicker, missile weapons, engineering, UC II and above, and other things that we believed it wasn't possible to do without the talent) we simply said you couldn't do them until you learned the talent.

I think, as a general rule, if the talent has a prerequisite, you can't try to do that thing until you've learned the talents for it, and also as a general rule, the more intellectual talents (phsyicker, for example) aren't possible either -- or, if they are, there is some kind of serious risk factor in attempting them; that is if you attempt to heal someone without the physicker talents (assuming the GM lets you make the attempt at all), there is a serious risk of harming the patient (inflicting additional hits) instead of healing them.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 12:23 AM   #135
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by luguvalium View Post
Zot- You've done a great job listing many different situations that could have talents, but I think I would only rarely use them as a GM. Using these situations to create examples of how these situations could be done with existing talents ( and then creating only the talents that are not covered by others ) would be a help for players. For example, I don't see Intimidation ( maybe based on a contest of ST ) being not covered by existing talents. I would see torture as just intimidation against a weakened opponent.
Well, I believe there IS a certain skill set associated with torture; especially in the medieval world where things had to be done mechanically (instead of with drugs or electricity or whatever), but I just think it's a can of worms that SJG probably shouldn't get involved in.

I mean if a given GM wants to go down that particular path, it wouldn't be too hard to create a talent for that skill set; but speaking only for myself, I wouldn't do it. If a victim of torture were important to my story, I'd describe the victim, not the torture (though, of course, YMMV).
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 01:04 AM   #136
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by luguvalium View Post
Zot- You've done a great job listing many different situations that could have talents, but I think I would only rarely use them as a GM. Using these situations to create examples of how these situations could be done with existing talents ( and then creating only the talents that are not covered by others ) would be a help for players. For example, I don't see Intimidation ( maybe based on a contest of ST ) being not covered by existing talents. I would see torture as just intimidation against a weakened opponent.
Not to get into a detailed discussion of torture but it's a complex, er, "art" to know how to cause maximum pain with minimum damage or danger of death in order to keep the victim suffering and in fear for the longest time.

The talents I listed though are ones I've used as a player or had in games I've GMed although, just to clear this up right now, I've never actually used torture in any stories I've been involved in. Nope, didn't inhale, never even in the same area with it :).

One of the best examples of Intimidation I've seen in a movie, by the way, is in Unforgiven where Clint Eastwood's character clears out an entire room just by speaking in a reasonable manner. Nothing at all to do with ST.

Sense Motive, the knowledge talents, and some of the culture talents I listed aren't covered by talents that I can think of. That's probably 10 or 12 talents there (7 for Sense Motive and knowledge talents and 5 for culture), plus at least 5 ranking membership talents that can potentially give you access to resources and man power through your position. So that's 15 new talents at a minimum.

These talents would all work fine with contest rules for the situations I list under the categories, at a minimum: finding things out, declaring things your character knows, getting people to do what you want, and using your reputation. If people want to use the small set of rules I laid out in my Research and Knowledge post, so much the better, it provides a formalized way for the GM and player to play out the results of a research/knowledge talent use.

Some people object to ranking membership as a talent but it does take a lot of time and experience to gain rank in a guild; I think it's a perfect example of buying a talent with XP.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 01:24 AM   #137
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Well, I believe there IS a certain skill set associated with torture; especially in the medieval world where things had to be done mechanically (instead of with drugs or electricity or whatever), but I just think it's a can of worms that SJG probably shouldn't get involved in.

I mean if a given GM wants to go down that particular path, it wouldn't be too hard to create a talent for that skill set; but speaking only for myself, I wouldn't do it. If a victim of torture were important to my story, I'd describe the victim, not the torture (though, of course, YMMV).
Could a substitute label for the talent of: INTERROGATION, work the same way, *and* side-step all the delicate issues related to TORTURE?

... perhaps with a line of copy stating: "... specifics of Methods and Techniques of Interrogation being left to player and GM ingenuity and taste.".

And what would we balance that talent out with to determine how well a character can hold-up under and resist Torture... I mean *nondescript INTERROGATION techniques*?

IIRC, I think TSR's TOP SECRET RPG *may* have dealt with this issue the same way... not sure.

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 07-12-2018 at 01:27 AM. Reason: typo
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 01:41 AM   #138
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Could a substitute label for the talent of: INTERROGATION, work the same way, *and* side-step all the delicate issues related to TORTURE?

... perhaps with a line of copy stating: "... specifics of Methods and Techniques of Interrogation being left to player and GM ingenuity and taste.".

And what would we balance that talent out with to determine how well a character can hold-up under and resist Torture... I mean *nondescript INTERROGATION techniques*?

IIRC, I think TSR's TOP SECRET RPG *may* have dealt with this issue the same way... not sure.
There's no attribute that represents willpower but we should have a way to represent it for situations like that, a decent way to represent resisting fear, etc. I've suggested using the character's middle-valued attribute as a stand-in for "life experience and general capabilities," abbreviated as "M". So 3/M would be 3 dice vs the middle-valued attribute. M has a range of 8 to 18 (from a human with ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 to a halfling with ST 4 DX 18 IQ 18).

(If you wanted to make experience factor in even more, you could add the number of attribute points a character has gained after 32-points to M, putting the max range at 8 to 26, which is closer to the max range of attributes)

Last edited by zot; 07-12-2018 at 01:42 AM. Reason: typeos
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 01:59 AM   #139
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Derp, I was looking through the list of Ocean's 11 characters and realized I totally missed these. Six more talents:
  • Gambling
  • Dealer (Gambling 2)
  • Cheating (increases gambling at a risk)
  • Con Artist (maybe this is too broad for just one talent)
  • Explosives (lower risk to use gunpowder)
  • Demolitions (increase damage and/or area of effect with bombs)
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 02:33 AM   #140
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Secrecy and Intelligence Talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Could a substitute label for the talent of: INTERROGATION, work the same way, *and* side-step all the delicate issues related to TORTURE?

... perhaps with a line of copy stating: "... specifics of Methods and Techniques of Interrogation being left to player and GM ingenuity and taste.".

And what would we balance that talent out with to determine how well a character can hold-up under and resist Torture... I mean *nondescript INTERROGATION techniques*?

IIRC, I think TSR's TOP SECRET RPG *may* have dealt with this issue the same way... not sure.
Countering is a good point, I only mentioned 3/M earlier which is only attribute-based. Here are some ideas, offensive and defensive. I think these should be trained talents -- smart but untrained people would most likely make extremely clumsy attempts at these, i.e. well-trained IQ 12 people should do better than untrained IQ 18 people (a two dice difference should do the trick, maybe 2 levels of these):
  • Direct Intelligence (finding information through direct means: interrogation, searching, spotting hidden people, etc.)
  • Indirect Intelligence (gather information through interviewing, keeping your efforts hidden, following information threads, working crowds -- maybe requires Direct Intelligence)
  • Defensive Intelligence (hide things well, keep secrets, resist interrogation, resist subtle attempts to gain information, recognize signs of information gathering, etc.)
  • Rumor Mongering (public relations, engineering reputation changes, affecting public opinion over periods of days or weeks, also countering other rumor mongering)

Thieves Guilds would do well to have experts in Defensive Intelligence to find out who's been "asking around" and what they've been looking for. Members with access to guild secrets should at least have some training in Defensive Intelligence.

An expert Rumor Monger could start a revolt. Tyrants would need experts in Defensive Intelligence to spot rumor mongering and their own Rumor Mongers to counter it.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.