03-27-2012, 12:23 PM | #921 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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The velocity of an object depends on the reference frame of the observer. But for each observer, there is one and only one objectively correct velocity. Moreover, from the velocity that you observe, it is possible in principle to compute the velocity that will be observed by anyone else in any other reference frame. That would not be remotely conceivable if velocity were subjective. And finally, from relative measurements, it is possible to determine measurements that are true in any reference frame, or invariants, such as rest mass, which are not relative. This distinction even shows up in Newtonian physics. The mass of an object is absolute, and is an intrinsic property of the object; but its weight is relative to a given gravitational field. But that doesn't mean that you are free to suppose that an elephant weighs two ounces, or that a feather weighs a ton, if it pleases you. In fact, any given object has one objectively correct weight in a given gravitational field, and from that weight, you can predict its weight in any other gravitational field. Bill Stoddard |
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03-27-2012, 12:26 PM | #922 |
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
I have already given you my position on this, but both you and whswhs seem content to not respond to what I actually write but instead repeat the same "arguments" over and over and not acknowledge the existence of the answers I give. I have tried to make sure that I respond to all the posts that are directed at me, but apparently hoping to receive the same courtesy is a bit too much.
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03-27-2012, 12:31 PM | #923 |
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
Also, could someone please explain to me what all this talk of electrons and whatnot have to do with the actual question we are supposed to be discussing? How does the logic work here, exactly?
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03-27-2012, 12:46 PM | #924 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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That it's "the same book" does not need to be shown in terms of subatomic physics. We have a well understood concept of "the same book" at the macroscopic level of objects directly accessible to human senses; it's "the same book" if it appears the same, or has changes that can be causally accounted for, and if we can trace a history for it going back to when we last identified it. Such tracing of histories is done regularly in fields ranging from paleography to police custody of evidence. And our functioning in the macroscopic world, including our use of the concept of "the same," is the source of all our knowledge of everything, including our knowledge of subatomic physics. Subatomic physics may set boundary conditions for the applicability of macroscopic concepts of identity, but it cannot invalidate them without invalidating its own evidential support, and thus itself. Bill Stoddard |
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03-27-2012, 12:46 PM | #925 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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Bill Stoddard |
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03-27-2012, 12:58 PM | #926 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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03-27-2012, 01:12 PM | #927 | |
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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My argument is rather simple: "Identity" as it's used in the context where a person and its uploaded ghost is said to have different identities is a meaningless folk psychological concept, just like "soul" or "qualia". Either "identity" is the sum of the mental characteristics we consider important to who we are or it has no comprehensive meaning whatsoever. All arguments against this belief is based on folk psychology or gut feelings. That seems simple enough, doesn't it? |
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03-27-2012, 01:27 PM | #928 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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If the latter is the case, then the validity of physics rests on the validity of the evidence; and any assumptions that are made in the process of obtaining that evidence must still be made in physical theory. If physics invalidated them, it would invalidate itself. And continuity of numerical identity over time is one of the assumptions that is habitually made in every physics laboratory on earth. Similarity cannot substitute for it. You want an example? Here is a physicist using an instrument to measure some property of some microsystem. How do they ensure that their measurements are meaningful? They calibrate the instrument before they use it; they do a series of measurements; and they calibrate it again at the end. And they rely on the instrument's readings to be consistent in between, because it's the same instrument. But "the same" cannot be determined by similarity, because the crucial similarity is similarity in scaling of the response. To show observationally that it had this similarity, they would have to recalibrate it during their actual measurements—but that would interfere with the measurement process. Instead, they infer that the response is similar from the fact that it is numerically the same instrument—and they don't worry about the possibility that a differently calibrated instrument of the same make and model might have teleported into their laboratory while they weren't looking. If they took that seriously, then all the theories of fundamental physics would be without evidential foundation and would have no claim to represent anything but a beautiful fantasy. So, yes, subatomic physics cannot invalidate the concept of numerical identity on a macroscopic scale, and we can stop talking about it. Bill Stoddard |
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03-27-2012, 01:32 PM | #929 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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Bill Stoddard |
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03-27-2012, 01:44 PM | #930 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question
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