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Old 12-07-2009, 04:19 AM   #1
Threlgar
 
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Default Tactics for strong monsters

Hi everybody !

I wonder how to make a strong (but not overly so) monster, such as a classic fantasy ogre or giant, more of a challenge by using tactics that emphasize itīs biggest asset - pure strength.

Problem with this is: Strength comes into play always after you already hit someone. Even when you charge in for a slam or try to grapple someone, he gets to defend normally, so a strong adversery with a not very impressive skill is not much of a threat to say 200 point characters.

To clarify: Imagine a ST-20, DX-9 ogre with a crude but powerful maul. I could give him Two-Handed Axe/Mace-skill of 16 and start making deceptive attacks in order to hit the PCs, who have decent defenses (Parry or Block -12+, Dodge 9+) at all, but thats not what I expect from an ogre.

So, what tactics will be effective and realistic fpr a big, dumb humanoid ?

Slam ?
Nice, but can be blocked and even parried. I wondered if those defenses, if successfull, only do away with the damage and can still result in the defender falling down, but the rules as written seem not to support this...

Grapple ?
To initiate a grapple, you still have to hit first...

Beat ?
Only effective against one type of defense, as I learned recently...

Striking at Weapons ?
Successfull Parry means no damage to the weapon...

Just curious how other GMs handle that. Thank you !
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Old 12-07-2009, 04:51 AM   #2
Agramer
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

First ,if they are dx 9..Id follow "classic" skill curve :

Human DX 10:

Raw soldier(recruit) WS 9

Average soldier Weapon skill 12

Veteran Soldier WS 14 + Combat reflexes

So first decide where that Ogre fits and deduce skill by 1 due lower DX(9 instead 10).

It is "realistic" to give them Brawling or Sumowrestling skill along bove lines also(both substitute DX in case of Slam attempt).

ST 20 = 2d-1 thr and 3d+2 swing

If you give them Great Axe 3d+5 ::>4d+2 cut dmg or Maul 5d-1 cr they will be terrifying for PCs ,since even single hit will probably drop down even most heavily armoured PC.

Even at skill 12 it will terrify them,which actually is your goal as GM.

Another option is to "wade through them" with All out attack...slam + attack on 9or less(Am not 100% positive how raw deals with it,check in Basic Set) if they have some armour on them or outnumber party.

Also with reach 2 with Maul or G.Axe closing in on them is also harder.
You could accompany them with humansized soldiers(Goblins,humans,Orcs...)to "cover" their flanks or even to form shield wall infront of them which would let Ogres to All out attack+4 to hit at PCs with impunity from PC retaliation,as long as shield wakll is holding.

All of above is considering them SM 0 or SM1,If they are bigger SM2+ also check Slam and Overrun for multihex creatures B392.

Also consider that Maul with 12 lbs weight is 3 times heavier than any one hand sword...So check B376 Parrying Heavy weapons...

And Ogre has more than 1,5* min ST for both weapons,so they dont become unready after attack.

So if PC has Shield and blocks and succeeds only for DB of shield you use Dmg to shield rules and smash that shield into splinters with above dmg output.

If PC parries he has 33,33% chance that his/her sword will break,if he parried for DB of shield...you dish dmg to shield also.

And dont forget that in slams you use whole ST of attacker instead weight if Slam was parried for purposes of determining breakage of weapon used to parry.

So from whatever point you look such Brutes are very,very dangerous and single PCs bad roll or ,heavens forbid, Ogres crit can end in death of PC.


So if youre using them just as Brutes...swing and charge...

If youre using them as trained soldiers,give them backup,or armour+shield,or even worse....Flail+armour+shield ;)
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:20 AM   #3
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

First, the ogre can certainly make Deceptive Attacks: he's so strong, he's swinging his maul very fast. No problem there.

Second, most PCs aren't going to want to want to parry that maul. It will probably weigh 3x or more their weapons, which means their weapons will break. Instead, they'll want to Block or Dodge.

After a Block or Dodge, the Ogre can try a Beat. Given that his ST is much more than his DX, he probably Beats on a 22+. That should knock most PCs shields way out of line, forcing them to Dodge.

Finally, you really have to consider that someone doing 3d+ of damage really doesn't need to hit very often to incapacitate characters, and he'll be plenty scary as it is. When my 350+ Dungeon Fantasy superheroes faced off against ogres, the PCs found them quite scary, even though very few of the ogres hit. The reason being that ANY hit by an ogre with an axe put most of the PCs out of the fight, so the stakes were quite high for them.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:08 AM   #4
Sam Baughn
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

Target the largest, slowest and most heavily armoured PCs as a priority - they will generally have the worst dodge scores and, as pointed out above, parrying and blocking heavy weapons leads to wrecked gear (which is often more dramatic than simply turning a PC into a thin red smear).

Make lots of attacks at low skill and hope for some critical hits. Dual weapon attacks and rapid strikes at default from low skill are very unlikely to hit, but when they do it will often be a critical hit. If you are tough enough to simply not bother with defending against most attacks (or so unskilled that it isn't worth it), all-out-attack (double) helps increase the number of rolls. If equipped with a suitable weapon, you may be able to use whirlwind attack to strike at a whole party of adventurers at once.

When grappling, take your time and use Evaluate followed by charging in with an All-Out Attack to increase your odds of hitting.

If you are using the rules in Martial arts, you can afford to use Defensive Attacks to boost your parries.

If you have significantly better reach than your opponents (often the case with giant monsters) you can keep retreating and forcing them to close the distance.

You can gang up with weaker allies. A group of skirmishers attacking the PCs from the rear while a big monster attacks from the front means that they will have to either soak up the damage from the little guys or turn their backs on the big one (which is exceptionally dangerous if they have a good reach and damage and are tough enough to survive making an All-Out Attack - the threat radius for a large monster is often 4-5 yards and any hit can be deadly). Have the skirmishers grapple or target the legs and feet of the PCs in order to line them up for a hit from the big guy.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:37 AM   #5
makke
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

@Perfect Organism:
The problem is that no decent Ogre (or Golem or whatever strong+dumb creature you'd like) would *ever* use Rapid Strikes, Defensive Attack nor Retreats.

Btw. I think the problem gets even worse if your PC's are using indestructible weapons/shields (say an Innate Attack that's able to block/parry). It's an problem I've encountered recently and not solved in any satisfactory way. :-/
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:44 AM   #6
Threlgar
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

Thank you folks, that is much useful advice in a pretty short time !

I thought I would best make slams to make the PCs go prone, to make them worried without killing them outright, but breaking their gear - or having them make desperate retreating dodges exactly to avoid that - is really much more "cool".

Some delightfully devious things among your points, too, mostly the various uses of weaker allies.

I see a great dynamic scene with much tactical movement building up in my minds eye ;-)

BTW: If a dodge succeeds because of the DF of a shield, does the shield take damage ? I think it does not, but this just makes me wonder...
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:55 AM   #7
Threlgar
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by makke View Post
@Perfect Organism:
The problem is that no decent Ogre (or Golem or whatever strong+dumb creature you'd like) would *ever* use Rapid Strikes, Defensive Attack nor Retreats.
Hm, thought the same at first glance. Defensive Attack and Retreat probably after experiencing first hand that itīs opponents are dangerous... Rapid Strike should be OK. At itīs level of skill it amounts to "flailing around wildly", which such creatures often do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by makke View Post
Btw. I think the problem gets even worse if your PC's are using indestructible weapons/shields (say an Innate Attack that's able to block/parry). It's an problem I've encountered recently and not solved in any satisfactory way. :-/
Thatīs indeed taking the fun out of the big dumb one... Blocking spells are a similar case, I think. But mages with good blocking spells are hard to hit anyway, and if you hit them by chance - uh, thats going to be messy...
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

I wouldn't see an Ogre employing "tactics" very much. Tactics is for wussies and big-brained people ;)

On a more serious note, the real threat of a high ST opponent is that they can disable you on one hit only. In my game, I want them to miss often because one solid hit usually means disaster for the PC. Besides, these brutes normally have low IQ so they shouldn't employ devious, cunning tactics. What to do to make them more of a threat ?

If the Brutes know they are not very skilled and really want to make sure they hit successfully, have them perform All-Out Attacks or Commited Attacks. They could even use the extra points to make their attack Deceptive or simply aim to get a critical hit (ex.: raising their skill from 12 to 16 and hope they'll roll a 6 or less) and therefore bypass the PC's defense.
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:47 AM   #9
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

Let the players block and assess knockback where applicable.

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Old 12-07-2009, 07:53 AM   #10
Agramer
 
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Default Re: Tactics for strong monsters

Quote:
Originally Posted by makke View Post
@Perfect Organism:
The problem is that no decent Ogre (or Golem or whatever strong+dumb creature you'd like) would *ever* use Rapid Strikes, Defensive Attack nor Retreats.
Way we play opponents is depending on category:

Raw,Inexpireanced,pure fodder with skill ranging from 8-10:
-OR all out attack,or telegraphic attack,or run in fear after sloughter starts
No fancy stuff and no coordinated actions

Average soldiers,barbarians battlehardened..etc skills 11-13(barbs can have higher):
-some use of tactics,formations in fighting
-normal atatcks and defences with occasional all out attack or step back

Veteran Soldiers skill 14+,C reflexes

-smartest possible use of tactics,formations,different attack/defence options
-this people survived much mayhem and are alive still

This helps GM and players to figure what theyre against

So it just depends in what category that Ogre fits in GMs vision of things and how will he fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threlgar View Post
BTW: If a dodge succeeds because of the DF of a shield, does the shield take damage ? I think it does not, but this just makes me wonder...
Yes,any Active defence that succeeded by only DB of shield = dmg to shield

(Including step back and any other kind of potential bonus...shields DB goes last....Only exception though is if there is Spell shield on someone ...than last DB is by spell,than below that by Shields DB)
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