Vulcan Combat Drones

[TheAmishStig]

Sorry if there's a thread on this and I missed it...I'm on break at work and don't have time for an exhaustive search.

A user going by "Mike Malley" asked about the particulars of Vulcan drones over in the KS comments section, and when combined with Shuriken and a pet project, it got me thinking. There are two situations the rules aren't clear on:

1) How far away can a Vulcan take control of a unit to use it as a drone, assuming "this drone has a channel to itself"? The Duckling rules specify a maximum range of one hex, but all other references start and end at "may operate normally", including the Shuriken.

2) Does a normally-crewed unit serving as a combat drone ignore D results for as long as it's under the Vulcan's control, because you can't "stun" an AI? For that matter, does the Shuriken? (This follow-up is important for said pet project)

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

1) How far away can a Vulcan take control of a unit to use it as a drone, assuming "this drone has a channel to itself"? The Duckling rules specify a maximum range of one hex, but all other references start and end at "may operate normally", including the Shuriken.

The Duckling rule is specific to "minimal control of a lot of units" which is why it's limited to 1 hex range. The Vulcan can't take "full control" of 16 units, so it's a bare minimum to keep the units moving. That's all it can do: "come with me."

A Combat Drone, in contrast, does not have this restriction. There can be a maximum of 4 units that "operate normally." It wouldn't be very useful to have a full-control unit that has to be only 1 hex away.

The heavy Drone is a special case in that it talks about having to be 1 hex away, even though it's an M3; but it's also the basis for the argument that "moving normally" means full range of movement. The 1 hex limit for heavy drones is specifically for when it is performing engineering tasks; it has nothing to do with movement. If it did, a unit that is purpose-built to be used by a Vulcan would have a movement of M1 (because any faster could never be used).

2) Does a normally-crewed unit serving as a combat drone ignore D results for as long as it's under the Vulcan's control, because you can't "stun" an AI? For that matter, does the Shuriken? (This follow-up is important for said pet project)

This is a lot more grey, but I think the answer is yes (generally). While it's not explicit that the definition of "disabled" is "the crew is knocked out," it's referenced as the primary example enough times that it's safe to use that as a loose definition (i.e., there is NEVER an example of being disabled that does not involve the crew).
I actually see this as a practical use of the Vulcan: "saving" a disabled crew by grabbing control and moving them out of the way.

However, it should apply ONLY to "disabled by fire." "disabled by terrain" (i.e., you drive a G.E.V. into a swamp) will still be in effect since this isn't a computer/crew issue, this is terrain effect. You could argue for the sake of KISS that this is also negated (maybe the Vulcan is better at navigating or something), but I think that's a little too unbalancing. A Vulcan should not be able to make 4 units impervious to every disable.

There is an argument for KISS that all disables still apply, though. An initial "D" could represent the Vulcan losing control of the unit and has to reconnect. From a KISS perspective, it's attractive to "keep a D as a D" and it makes for less bookkeeping. For example, if a unit is disabled but under Vulcan control, how do you show that on the board? What happens with a second D? Is that different somehow? How do you track it?

[offsides]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

This is a lot more grey, but I think the answer is yes (generally). While it's not explicit that the definition of "disabled" is "the crew is knocked out," it's referenced as the primary example enough times that it's safe to use that as a loose definition (i.e., there is NEVER an example of being disabled that does not involve the crew).
I actually see this as a practical use of the Vulcan: "saving" a disabled crew by grabbing control and moving them out of the way.

Well, using the LAD as an example of a non-Ogre, non-crewed unit, they're (IIRC) also immune to D results. And the Cobb calculator has long had "Ogre/robotic" as a defense modifier, though I don't know how official that can be considered. However, in general non-crewed units have been immune to being disabled, for exactly the above reason. Additionally, the fact that "duckling" units that get dropped immediately become disabled adds weight to that assumption - no crew AND no AI control = disabled. Conversely, active crew OR AI control = not disabled. Since crew can be knocked out and AI cannot (barring variant rules), I would say that a Vulcan (or any other Ogre) controlled combat drone should be immune to D results.

[TheAmishStig]

Glad I'm reading case 1 correctly...though it does leave one thread hanging:

1a) "Is there a limit on 'My vulcan is going to treat *that* unit as a drone for this turn', or does it not matter?".

Being able to point at a friendly unit almost a hundred hexes away seems a bit silly, but also violates KISS because "we're playing on a map that's bigger than 2 boards by 2 boards" is one of the edge cases to end all edge cases in the world of Ogre. I don't think it happens often enough to be worth making a rule for, but Drew/Steve might have different thoughts on the matter and the game is in their care, not mine, so it's worth asking all the same. :)

Case 2, those are exactly the kinds of questions that led to me asking. I agree wholeheartedly that if the answer is 'yes, it counts as a cyber-unit while being controlled' that it should be combat results only; there's no such thing as a cyber-unit that's immune to terrain effects, and no reason that 'Here Vulcan, you drive' should be any different.

I see both of those angles, too. On one hand, 'Vulcan has to juggle a bunch of units with no crew' (maybe a scenario-specific condition that all units are empty or something, a motor pool getting raided while the troops are away) would make for a wildly entertaining scenario if done right...on the other, adding a layer that gets into the distinction between "Destroyed = crew killed" and "Destroyed = unit rendered inoperable" is a layer of complexity that I don't think would benefit Ogre, even if it would make for some interesting tactical possibilities.

Ogre Minis does make a distinction along those lines [Hulks vs Obliterated], but that creates some nasty connotations like 'Can a Hulk be used as a drone?' and is a rabbit hole that I don't even want to look at funny, let alone go down.

Actually, now there's a thought: what's on the back of a Heavy Drone counter? If they have a 'Disabled' side, then it stands to reason that 'Can be disabled by fire' is possible. Maybe not intended [it may be there just for 'whoops, drove into rubble' purposes], but that'd put some weight behind 'hit it hard enough the connection drops out' (which seems to be the remaining X factor...all the other cyber-units have a wired, onboard connection)

[offsides]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

Glad I'm reading case 1 correctly...though it does leave one thread hanging:

1a) "Is there a limit on 'My vulcan is going to treat *that* unit as a drone for this turn', or does it not matter?".

My gut says there should be a limit of probably no more than 3-4 hexes, 5 at the outset. While canonically there's sufficient electronic coverage to "see" the entire battlefield, I would think that receiving ELINT data and putting it all together to generate the big picture is easier than maintaining a 2-way C&C link. Since the range of an MB is 3 hexes, that's probably the minimum distance at which they have near-guaranteed comm signal, since they're putting smart shells on target at that range. 5 hexes is Ogre Missile range, though with their size/strength they don't need to be quite as accurate. HWZ can fire out to 8 hexes, but I've always assumed that they used forward-deployed armor/INF to help with their targeting the way current artillery does. And, again, they're a big enough boom that precision is less critical. We know that armor units have their own on board systems to make minor decisions, but that's what allows them to fight back in an overrun when disabled and not much else, so that signal NEEDS to be solid.

I'm definitely open to arguments for longer/shorter ranges, but 3 or 4 hexes is probably the "sweet spot" IMHO. As for how to take control, I would say that at the beginning of each turn during/at the end of the recovery phase, the Vulcan picks which disabled units it's going to control that turn. In that way, a unit that's disabled by fire can be "rescued" by a Vulcan and either retreat to hopefully get out of range until the crew recovers the next turn, or (in a somewhat sinister twist) charge forward to try and get another hit in before possibly getting blown up.

The only trick is how to represent an armor unit as "crew disabled, robotic control" - my first thought is to undisable the unit but put a "disabled" marker on it, but that might be too confusing...

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

Being able to point at a friendly unit almost a hundred hexes away seems a bit silly, but also violates KISS because "we're playing on a map that's bigger than 2 boards by 2 boards" is one of the edge cases to end all edge cases in the world of Ogre. I don't think it happens often enough to be worth making a rule for, but Drew/Steve might have different thoughts on the matter and the game is in their care, not mine, so it's worth asking all the same. :)

I see where you are going now; the problem is "unlimited range" in the context of "moving normally." Yeah, that's a problem. There's no definition of where that control begins or ends, which by normal standards in how the rules work means "unlimited" _because_ it's "moving normally." I can be ok with controlling something 30 hexes away, but it feels like there should be a limit on how far away to _initiate_ contact.

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

Actually, now there's a thought: what's on the back of a Heavy Drone counter? If they have a 'Disabled' side, then it stands to reason that 'Can be disabled by fire' is possible. Maybe not intended [it may be there just for 'whoops, drove into rubble' purposes], but that'd put some weight behind 'hit it hard enough the connection drops out' (which seems to be the remaining X factor...all the other cyber-units have a wired, onboard connection)

Yes, they are Disabled on the backside. I think it's safe to assume that's for terrain based on everything else. The only fiddly bit for me is if something is already disabled, should a second D kill it? I would say yes because that represents death, but it adds some complexity in tracking (i.e., why would the second D matter, but the first one doesn't?).

For bookkeeping, I'm thinking disabled is still a normal flip to the disabled side, and just add a marker to show it's connected via a drone channel (maybe one of the white-on-red number markers, 1-4). That would be important anyway to keep track of which is being controlled (especially in a duckling situation)

[GranitePenguin]

The range is also a KISS thing. It's a lot easier to keep track of and understand if you just say "the Vulcan picks 4 units to control" and don't sweat the details about where they are. Again, since the rules do not state a range, there isn't one (that's how the rules work).

tracking the state of units is really a personal preference. For example, true ducklings are "considered disabled" if out of range. How do you track the difference between a disabled unit that can recover vs one that can't? looks like a lot of those extra counters in the ODE box are going to get some use.

[offsides]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Yes, they are Disabled on the backside. I think it's safe to assume that's for terrain based on everything else. The only fiddly bit for me is if something is already disabled, should a second D kill it? I would say yes because that represents death, but it adds some complexity in tracking (i.e., why would the second D matter, but the first one doesn't?).

Hmm... except aren't heavy drones HVY movement type? In which case they can get stuck, but not disabled by terrain. Perhaps the disabled is there to indicate when they aren't being controlled?

As for a second D killing a drone, if the drone is not under control (or is a ducklng drone), a D should kill it, because it doesn't have the active control to dodge/intercept/whatever turns a kill into a near miss/stun the crew. Actively controlled drones ignore all Ds, as they have that ability to turn a kill shot to a near miss, without the stun effect. Now, you could argue that a D on a Vulcan controlled, crew-disabled unit should either add 1 turn before the crew recovers, or possibly even kill the crew (turning it into a permanent drone), but that's pushing KISS a good bit.

As for the range thing, while I think there probably should be a max range to control and/or take over a disabled unit/drone, I agree that as it's written there is none. Therefore that should be the rule unless/until there's errata stating otherwise or you're playing with a house rule.

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

I see where you are going now; the problem is "unlimited range" in the context of "moving normally." Yeah, that's a problem. There's no definition of where that control begins or ends, which by normal standards in how the rules work means "unlimited" _because_ it's "moving normally." I can be ok with controlling something 30 hexes away, but it feels like there should be a limit on how far away to _initiate_ contact.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by offsides

The only trick is how to represent an armor unit as "crew disabled, robotic control" - my first thought is to undisable the unit but put a "disabled" marker on it, but that might be too confusing...

If it matters at all (see GP's argument about KISS factor...how often will 'I want to grab that unit 5 map sheets away' come up...) I was thinking a bit longer for the 'grab' range...12-15ish minimum from a 'practical gameplay' perspective, since there's no limits on range once the link is established...and that 3-5 is within the strike range of nearly every unit in the game.

A Vulcan that has to end its turn in harm's way on the off chance a unit in range draws fire away from the Vulcan itself and ends up disabled during the upcoming enemy turn (as 'pick your drones' is a recovery phase action IIRC) is almost always an extremely bad trade...unless it's a "you can't win without this" scenario objective, the Vulcan is going to be way more valuable than whatever it's rescuing.

Since reading...The Ogre book, I think, somewhere Steve wrote an essay on the underlying math of the stats...I've thought of weapon ranges as a 'sure intercept' range. A practical limit [as beyond that the shell is effectively guaranteed to be shot down, or to take so long getting to target that it can be outmaneuvered before impact...the smart shells capable of course correction and intercept point prediction, not of Rocky the Flying Squirrel launched out of a circus cannon antics], rather than being a physics-based limit [guidance link range, the HS physics equation for distance covered during 'time to ground']. Missiles and Howitzer shells having onboard motors would give them both more maneuverability downrange and a longer time before deceleration in that situation, and thus a much longer effective range than similar-potency ballistics.

"Crew Disabled" is where it gets into messy semantics. Most of the time, it could be treated as 'not disabled', because the crew is going to recover at the start of the next turn anyway, either before or simultaneous to the Vulcan choosing its control targets...but it brings the question of 'Crew disabled, D result, what happens?' into play. Which leads me to:

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

The only fiddly bit for me is if something is already disabled, should a second D kill it?

The $25,000 question right there. And making it even messier: working from the assumption that two Ds represents a 'crew kill' while an X represents a 'vehicle kill', would the unit be removed upon receiving the second D, or upon the Vulcan relinquishing control? If the latter, why can't it reconnect later? As far as the Vulcan's ability to control a unit, technically a tank full of corpses is no different from a crewless drone...

It's...messy. Lots of potential for semantic 'gotchas', lots of potential for things to fiddle themselves completely out of the scope of Ogre, etc...and you guys are some of the best out there to work with it through.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

For bookkeeping, I'm thinking disabled is still a normal flip to the disabled side, and just add a marker to show it's connected via a drone channel (maybe one of the white-on-red number markers, 1-4). That would be important anyway to keep track of which is being controlled (especially in a duckling situation)

I like that. Maybe even go as far as putting the marker on the unit no matter what its status is, that way it's completely unambiguous that it's being controlled (and if cleverly utilized what channel it's on).

[TheAmishStig]

And arrgh, I'm spending so much time dwelling and proofreading that you guys keep getting 2-3 posts ahead of me...