Comparing Characters

[Helborn]

Originally, comparing TFT characters was quite easy - a 38 point character was comparable to other 38 point characters. But under the new rules there is a vast difference between a 38 point character that has earned and spent 2500 XP and a 38 point character that has earned and spent 5,000 XP or 10,000 XP which you can expect to achieve within a few years of playing

[hcobb]

Characters are easy in TFT. Buy as much IQ as you can up front, then train your DX up to around the 38 total point for 2,300 XP in four years of adventures. Then get a skill point per year to add to your initial 12 to 14 skill points.

[larsdangly]

I understand the OP's question, and I think the answer is that lifetime accumulated XP is the most obvious basis for comparison

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I understand the OP's question, and I think the answer is that lifetime accumulated XP is the most obvious basis for comparison

Which means you'll need to track that for NPCs that the GM creates (and in theory, intelligent monsters too) in order to make accurate comparisons. Seems like a lot of work.

[hcobb]

Balanced against the munchkin players is to just assume the costs of the easy route and if the NPCs actually did things reasonably instead it just took them more off-screen time to do so which can be ignored.

[Helborn]

Try a gladiator combat with
CharacterA (2300 XP) with ST12,DX15(13), IQ11 in Leather with Small Shield and Talents: Sword(2), Shield(1), Bow(2), Missile Weapons3(3), Toughness_1(2), and Quickdraw(Sword)

vs

CharacterB (10,300 XP) with ST12,DX15(13), IQ11 in Leather with Small Shield and Talents: Sword(2), Shield(1), Bow(2), Missile Weapons3(3), Toughness_1(2), and Quickdraw(Sword), plus Running (2), Acute Hearing(2), Swimming(1), Acrobatics(2), Shield Expertise(1), Tactics(2), Weapon Expertise (Sword)(3), Unarmed Combat I(1) plus 1 Lesser Wish

they're both 38 points. Any guesses which one will prevail most of the time? Especially if you put them in an arena like the White Room in Death Test 2?

Of course CharacterB will require a long, long time to achieve all of that but eventually there will be such characters - some getting there faster than others.

Actually, keeping track of the XP is relatively easy: Total XP, Spent XP, Remaining XP. You need to do that now for remaining XP to know when a character can buy something, the other two are just running totals.

[larsdangly]

What is the purpose? Is this for players to rate their characters against each other? Or some other reason?

[Helborn]

My point is that, in the past, we could talk about 32 point characters, 38 point characters, 40 point characters and have a rough equivalence so that in comparing adventures (Orbquest - for 4 38 point characters) the characters would have a consistent capability - for or against. However, that equivalence is gone. You cannot simply have adventures for 38 point characters, you also need to compare relative Experience levels, or you're going to have a Wizard (ST=8, DX=13, IQ=17) with 12 spells going up against a Wizard (ST=8, DX=13, IQ=17) with 22 spells and a fully double charged Manastaff because he's had an additional five years and an additional 10,000 XP.

Adventures become either too hard or too easy without a new way to compare characters.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Helborn

My point is that, in the past, we could talk about 32 point characters, 38 point characters, 40 point characters and have a rough equivalence so that in comparing adventures (Orbquest - for 4 38 point characters) the characters would have a consistent capability - for or against. However, that equivalence is gone. You cannot simply have adventures for 38 point characters, you also need to compare relative Experience levels, or you're going to have a Wizard (ST=8, DX=13, IQ=17) with 12 spells going up against a Wizard (ST=8, DX=13, IQ=17) with 22 spells and a fully double charged Manastaff because he's had an additional five years and an additional 10,000 XP.

Adventures become either too hard or too easy without a new way to compare characters.

I agree with this to some extent. This was slightly fuzzy to me with the old rules as well though. The new rules do amplify the fuzziness. I'm thinking of adding a PCs total skill points to their total stat points and rating adventures by this. So, "an adventure for 40-46 point characters" would be suitable for starting characters. Here are some characters that fall in that range:
ST12 DX12 IQ8 + 8 points of talents/spells (starting character)
ST8 DX12 IQ12 + 12 points of talents/spells (starting character)
ST14 DX12 IQ10 + 10 points of talents/spells (non-starting character; see first example for starting stats. then they increased atts 4 times and picked-up 2 points of skills)

That's all I've got at the moment. Maybe there's a better way.

[Skarg]

GURPS has the same problem but worse because of the wider variety of fruits and vegetables that go into the equation. Nonetheless, 4e makes a valiant effort... but it's a bit silly, because a scientist and a gladiator are just different.

It's slightly more relevant in TFT, but it depends on what the situation is. Talents are almost never worth a full attribute point except for doing part of the thing they do. Of course that makes XP not work for a balance estimate in the current system because talents actually cost more than attributes by quite a bit for most people. Unless you consider XP an opportunity, and it's up to the player applying the XP to make appropriate use for whatever situation, which sort of works for an ITL campaign (except for the various peculiarities some of us have been musing about).

Really though, I think that if you want to evaluate relative abilities of full characters in TFT, what you really do is look at what is actually on their sheets, and consider the situation. Or you don't - you play out the situation and find out what happens. Part of playing it out is describing things so players (and NPCs) have a chance to react appropriately (e.g. You notice he looks extremely strong and skilled and is carrying two large axes and wearing fine plate that seems to have been repaired countless times) - then situations can tend to balance things, and GMs can let go of trying to predict risk and control outcomes more than makes sense.