25mm Grenade Launchers

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

According to UT, Typical Armor by TL:
Braces include added DR for convenience.
The Reflex Tacsuit, which is the typical (i.e. neither the élite nor junk, I assume) armour of paramilitary and light infantry units, provides DR10 against Crushing damage, stopping 3 out of 4 dice that grenades do. That's for the same-hex hit, though admittedly not counting any peculiarities of different armour levels across the body. That's with light infantry and paramilitary types. Even with SWAT-level armour, we get enough DR to survive (but of course not ignore) a direct hit. And Heavies, indeed, are to be fought exclusively with AP weapons like Shaped Charges.

Will those 3rd world countries that Kromm mention though be able to get their hands on enough TL Light Body Armor though to Equip out their army though? Will they buy perhaps 300,000 Tac Suits for their infantry to protect from grenades or pocket that money for higher prestige purchases like tanks or jets?

If they do purchase this armor will they be able to maintain it especially since it is probably 1-3 TLs effectively over their base civs TL or will it slowly degrade from poor maintenance (just as their high tech aircraft and tanks tend to do currently)?

Can I see sections of a third world country being equipped with such armor, absolutely. Do I see them going through the effort and expense to maintain it across their entire army especially since it will still not provide much protection from large bombs, artillery, direct fire guns and the like not as likely?

[copeab]

25mm HE shells are perfectly adequate for (para)military forces of a repressive nation to use for crowd control. Or ar least against terrorists/rebels.

[RogerBW]

Since killer robots are pretty much the canonical examples of targets with lots of DR, Will to Live (obPlug: buy a copy! Buy several!) has a reasonably extensive section on weapon selection for when you're going up against them. To summarize: damage type and armor divisor matter more than base damage. In an Ultra-Tech game, shaped charge and SEFOP are best, APDS and APEP come next. And yes, you can fire shaped charge out of a grenade launcher... it just means you have to get rather closer to the robot than you might want to.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

According to UT, Typical Armor by TL:
Braces include added DR for convenience.

The Reflex Tacsuit, which is the typical (i.e. neither the élite nor junk, I assume) armour of paramilitary and light infantry units, provides DR10 against Crushing damage, stopping 3 out of 4 dice that grenades do. That's for the same-hex hit, though admittedly not counting any peculiarities of different armour levels across the body. That's with light infantry and paramilitary types. Even with SWAT-level armour, we get enough DR to survive (but of course not ignore) a direct hit. And Heavies, indeed, are to be fought exclusively with AP weapons like Shaped Charges.

You can safely assume that "typical" means "typical professionals in a wealthy nation." In most settings, the highest TL is that of such people, and everybody else operates at one or two TLs lower. Note also that "paramilitary" doesn't imply "neither professional nor wealthy"; it refers to border agencies, police, and security services organized along military lines but outside a nation's formal military, and to PMCs, which are often better-equipped than the military.

I'd absolutely stand by my assertion that just about everybody outside of the professional forces (military or otherwise) of wealthy nations at the cutting edge of the TL would be either unarmored or armored at the levels considered cutting-edge one to two TLs ago.

[chimchim]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can safely assume that "typical" means "typical professionals in a wealthy nation." In most settings, the highest TL is that of such people, and everybody else operates at one or two TLs lower. Note also that "paramilitary" doesn't imply "neither professional nor wealthy"; it refers to border agencies, police, and security services organized along military lines but outside a nation's formal military, and to PMCs, which are often better-equipped than the military.

I'd absolutely stand by my assertion that just about everybody outside of the professional forces (military or otherwise) of wealthy nations at the cutting edge of the TL would be either unarmored or armored at the levels considered cutting-edge one to two TLs ago.

QFT
The Uk is considered to be a first world nation and yet we struggle to issue upto date body armour to all of our forces operationg in war zones. Less well of nations will have even less armour available.

[Kromm]

Indeed, look at recent news footage of any violence not involving nations that are G8* powers and/or permanent members of the UNSC. You will not see much or any body armor. There are vast regions of the planet where even full-time soldiers fight in t-shirts, trousers, and sandals, and without helmets. Armor is a big part of why the troops of wealthy nations are so powerful, totally apart from weapons, logistics, training, etc. And I'm fairly certain that David Pulver had the most-advanced organizations in mind when he wrote the Ultra-Tech examples, as those best illustrate what the TL has to offer. Have-not organizations have obsolete gear or insufficient gear, and so are rather terrible examples.

* I was going to say "G20" there, but I've seen cops in Mexico's fairly hot drug war going around without body armor.