Pyramid 3/36: Was "Dungeons" a Fantasy?

[J. Edward Tremlett]

You've read it by now. What did you think?

Did it make you want to go dashing into the first hole you found or want to stay back at the inn?

Did you want to run a new campaign after reading it, or give it up for Scrabble?

Let us know!

[Crakkerjakk]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to use every single article in my next DF campaign. And I've told at least three people about it. So that's a win, I suppose.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

I want to see a party made up entirely of demolishers and musketeers. They would all have Hard of Hearing.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I want to see a party made up entirely of demolishers and musketeers. They would all have Hard of Hearing.

What? What?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

What? What?

That's telling them what's what old chap! ;)

[b-dog]

One part of the Historical Dungeon was strange to me. The Undead Keep It did not seem to follow old school protocol. For instance, say there was a demon worshipping temple that was defeated in the past by the forces of good and because it was a temple to evil it was left alone in ruins because no good folk would dare to live near there. Likely those servants of evil that were slain by the forces of good or that survived hidden deep in the temple and later died were turned into undead by the Demon Lord they were worshipping to act as guardians for what is left of the temple.

Surely most humanoids would shun such a place but some of the nasty ones like goblin-kin, ogres, minotaurs and trollS would likely find the ruins a great place to set up a stronghold base from which to launch attacks on travelers, towns and so forth. These races would likely live in the upper levels of the dungeon leaving the undead guardians of the demonic temple alone. Or the goblin-kin, ogres, minotaurs and trolls could seal off certain areas of the dungeon with boulders or even wards if there was a witch-doctor present.

But this may be because I think of goblin-kin type of races as tending toward evil as in my world they are solidified evil fairies that live in the mortal world so they would be less offended by undead and other evil stuff. More "natural" races like lizard men and coleopterans would be less tolerant of undead I would think.

[J. Edward Tremlett]

Originally Posted by b-dog

One part of the Historical Dungeon was strange to me. The Undead Keep It did not seem to follow old school protocol. For instance, say there was a demon worshipping temple that was defeated in the past by the forces of good and because it was a temple to evil it was left alone in ruins because no good folk would dare to live near there. Likely those servants of evil that were slain by the forces of good or that survived hidden deep in the temple and later died were turned into undead by the Demon Lord they were worshipping to act as guardians for what is left of the temple.

Surely most humanoids would shun such a place but some of the nasty ones like goblin-kin, ogres, minotaurs and trollS would likely find the ruins a great place to set up a stronghold base from which to launch attacks on travelers, towns and so forth. These races would likely live in the upper levels of the dungeon leaving the undead guardians of the demonic temple alone. Or the goblin-kin, ogres, minotaurs and trolls could seal off certain areas of the dungeon with boulders or even wards if there was a witch-doctor present.

But this may be because I think of goblin-kin type of races as tending toward evil as in my world they are solidified evil fairies that live in the mortal world so they would be less offended by undead and other evil stuff. More "natural" races like lizard men and coleopterans would be less tolerant of undead I would think.

I can see that point. I tend to go from the standpoint that the dead are just nasty, even for "evil' types. Sort of like having a shark in the pool but still wanting to go for a swim.

[Kuroshima]

• The Demolisher
  
  2/5
  Sincerely, I don't really see the appeal of this template. Shattersand damage is rather crappy, and for the rest, it feels like a crippled knight, as that's what he's going to be most of the time, given the reload times for the shattersand weapons. As for traps, it's usually the PCs who get into the creature's lair (AKA the dungeon) not vice versa. Sure, it can happen, but it's marginal.
  
  As for the flavour, well, let's say that crazed tattooed dwarves are not my cup of tea... but they might be for others that have "more conventional" understandings of Dungeon Fantasy.
  Sorry Sean, but it's one of the weakest articles.
• Dungeon Saints
  
  FNORD/5
  The article of the issue, and of many issues up to now... Now seriously, I can't comment on it, as I'm obviously biased ;)
  Still, it's the best thing since sliced bread
• The Musketeer
  
  4/5
  Very interesting template. Even if the reload times are as bad as the ones for the demolisher, at least they pack a decent amount of hurt. Needs Mixing Professions lenses, so you can have something-swashbucklers and swashbucker-somethings. Probably a little too spread-out, when it comes to melee weapons.
  Very good, and I might get the catgirl swashbuckler in my game to take it
• Eidetic Memory: The Horrific Dungeon
  
  4/5
  Here are some very nice tips on making dungeon adventures more horrific. They are not that applicable to the Dungeon Fantasy genre, though, as they work better if the characters aren't 250+ points killing machines. It would have gotten a 5/5 in a horror themed issue.
  Still, this would rock as advice for Ravenloft campaigns
• Powering Up: Imbuements
  
  1.5/5
  It's no secret that I love Imbuements. However, I don't see much in this article that you could gleam from reading the last section of Power Ups 1: Imbuements, in the section on Dungeon Fantasy. The new modifiers for Imbue are way underpriced. Kromm himself said that single weapon skill imbuements would be at best a -5% to -10%, not -50% as in this article. Finally, when I designed the Mystic Knight, I made sure it was lacking advantages like Weapon Master and Extra Attack. The Mystic Archer and the Mystic Swordsman don't remove these traits from their respective templates, meaning that they're at the same time terribly point starved, and best at everything, compared to Mystic Knight, Scouts and Swashbucklers.
  
  Also, well, with the Mystic Knight, I made the decision to make Imbuements something magic-only. While it's not out of genre to have divine and chi powered Imbuements, it isn't out of genre to have clerics, holy warriors, druids and bards purchase the Mystic Knight lens to gain access to these special powers.
  
  Now, the Imbue Other enhancement, I really like...
  Some nice ideas though...
• Historically Rich Dungeons
  
  3/5
  This article presents very neat ideas, but it sincerely needs a little more crunchy bits. It has issues, IMHO, when meeting the hard reality of the table, where the characters only care for "how do I kill it" and "how much loot do I earn". At least that's what happens in my table when we play DF. I find this article will be include in my session prep, and will add some interesting points to my dungeons, but unfortunatelly, I'm pretty sure that it will need LOADS of work to get some benefit out of it.
• All Charged Up Magic Items
  
  4.9/5
  It was a big DOH moment when I realized that all the tools I needed to have wands of whatever, with X charges, I already had. If there's anything that I dislike here, is the fact that it doesn't strictly adhere to the guidelines on pricing magic items in Dungeon Fantasy.
  Sean, this is MUCH better than the Demolisher article. I'm sure it would have gotten to be the main article if it had been a little more extense, with pre-made examples, and a table with the results of the formula. Still, better, why not reuse the Power Item table?
• Random Though Table: The Joy of Hex
  
  3.5/5
  I'm no fan or RTT, most of the time, there's really nothing useful for me. I see them as great, and I would not remove them from the issue, but my brain isn't wired to take advantage of them. This one is no different, but the theme and ideas make it slightly more interesting.
  Not a fan of editorials though
• Odds and Ends
  
  3/5
  Not the best O&E, but definitively fun enough. Murphy's Rules was hilarious, as usual. A Bit of Burning Advice was completely meh, and How Do We Begin had some nice ideas, exactly what I want in this section.
  Senator Flesheater for President! He can't be worse than what we have now!

[demonsbane]

I liked the following articles:

• Dungeon Saints
• Eidetic Memory: The Horrific Dungeon
• Powering Up: Imbuements
• Historically Rich Dungeons
• All Charged Up Magic Items

[Jeffr0]

My take on the issue is here.

I try to write them up without reading other people's opinions first, so I am mildly amused at how Kuroshima almost systematically comes to opposite conclusions.

Awesome issue, though-- it's the difference between Dungeon Fantasy getting played or gathering mould as far as I'm concerned.