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Old 09-07-2016, 05:53 AM   #1
McAllister
 
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Default How does TK: Attraction work?

So, Powers p. 83 says that someone whose Telekinesis has Attraction uses an Attack maneuver to affect an active opponent. My question is, what does that Attack action look like?

1. Roll against DX, Brawling or Sumo Wrestling to Slam the opponent directly toward you: its HP are the TK's ST and its Move is the TK's Move. As an invisible attack, the first attack cannot be defended against: subsequent attacks can be dodged at -4. My understanding is no other defense would be applicable. Attacks on subsequent turns are just additional slams.

2. Roll against DX or Sumo Wrestling to Shove your opponent toward you. As above, the first attack permits no defense, subsequent can be dodged at -4.

3. Roll against DX, Wresting, Sumo Wrestling or Judo to grapple an opponent. Once you've grappled your opponent, if your TK level doubles their ST or better, it can drag them at its Move. Otherwise, TK grapple your opponent until you have them "pinned," then you can drag them. Given Attraction can't prevent an enemy from attacking, I would allow no other grapple maneuvers that deviate from this pattern, and I would consider this a "virtual pin:" the TK doesn't need to take your opponent to the ground before attempting the "pin," but they don't acquire the pinned status, either. It's purely an intermediate step before dragging.

4. All three of these are applications of Attraction, and the teke can choose freely among them.

5. Something else.

I'm inclined to say RAW supports #4. The problem with slams is that striking is prohibited, and it's kinda like striking. The problem with shoving is that it doesn't take the TK's Move into account at all, so you might as well stack the Lift Only limitation on there (and also shoving sucks, I'm not buying levels of TK so I can use them as thr cr nw dkb damage tyvm). The problem with grappling is that TK: Attraction is supposed to move people toward the user, and grappling applies a -4 penalty on top of that. If you knock someone down with one of the first two, is it any harder to Slam or Shove them toward you? Basically I'm very confused as to how this plays out.

Also, if it's an Attack Maneuver, does that mean I can grab Extra Attack and:

A. pull the same person toward me twice?

B. pull two people toward me without Area Effect?

C. pull someone toward me and hit them with a baseball bat at the same time? Yes, I am building a character whose working title is "Batter Up," how could you tell?
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:19 AM   #2
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

If your TK is strong enough to lift them off the ground, you can slam your opponent into yourself, using your opponent's HP and your TK (modified by encumbrance) as the speed to determine slam damage. Otherwise, roll contests for grapples as normal, and your opponent is pulled MoS yards towards you every time you win.
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:37 AM   #3
McAllister
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
If your TK is strong enough to lift them off the ground,
Strong enough? Meaning opponent weights under 8xBL (per Lifting and Moving, Basic p. 353)? ST is double opponent's or more so dragging is effortless (per Grappling, p. 371)?

Quote:
you can slam your opponent into yourself, using your opponent's HP and your TK (modified by encumbrance) as the speed to determine slam damage.
So if I'm holding a spear, I can stick my opponent on it to make the slam damage impaling: that's the logic on Martial Arts p. 107, but in reverse. However, is there any way to add the collision damage of the slam to the swing crushing damage I do with a baseball bat? Say I have an Extra Attack, so one is pulling the target and the other's swinging at it.

Quote:
Otherwise, roll contests for grapples as normal, and your opponent is pulled MoS yards towards you every time you win.
Well, that's not exactly how grappling normally works. Are you suggesting that my Attack action is to roll to a contested check? Do I need to have hit to establish a grapple on a previous turn? If it's a contested check, do I use (highest of ST, DX and grappling skill) for each contestant like it's a Takedown check? And "pulled MoS yards" isn't anything like how dragging works in a grapple. EDIT: Well, Martial Arts p. 118 isn't entirely unlike this, as it described a contested grappling check, but the winner gets to drag the loser for a step, not MoS yards.

Alternatively, point me at a book/Pyramid article/forum post/popular houserule website and I can see for myself where you're getting this. That might be best.

Last edited by McAllister; 09-07-2016 at 06:39 AM. Reason: See "EDIT:"
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Strong enough? Meaning opponent weights under 8xBL (per Lifting and Moving, Basic p. 353)? ST is double opponent's or more so dragging is effortless (per Grappling, p. 371)?
As per Lifting and Moving in Basic. Because your opponent can't grab the TK "hands" to fight back, it's easier to lift people with TK than your hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
So if I'm holding a spear, I can stick my opponent on it to make the slam damage impaling: that's the logic on Martial Arts p. 107, but in reverse. However, is there any way to add the collision damage of the slam to the swing crushing damage I do with a baseball bat? Say I have an Extra Attack, so one is pulling the target and the other's swinging at it.
TK requires Concentrate; you'll need Compartmentalized Mind to use TK and your muscles at the same time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Well, that's not exactly how grappling normally works. Are you suggesting that my Attack action is to roll to a contested check? Do I need to have hit to establish a grapple on a previous turn? If it's a contested check, do I use (highest of ST, DX and grappling skill) for each contestant like it's a Takedown check? And "pulled MoS yards" isn't anything like how dragging works in a grapple. EDIT: Well, Martial Arts p. 118 isn't entirely unlike this, as it described a contested grappling check, but the winner gets to drag the loser for a step, not MoS yards.

Alternatively, point me at a book/Pyramid article/forum post/popular houserule website and I can see for myself where you're getting this. That might be best.
Just guesstimating effects here. But, yes, I would say you need to establish a grapple before you can start pulling people towards you.
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Old 09-07-2016, 07:52 AM   #5
McAllister
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
As per Lifting and Moving in Basic. Because your opponent can't grab the TK "hands" to fight back, it's easier to lift people with TK than your hands.
Interesting, I like it. I suppose, while you're taking the Attack actions to get them into the air (for example, it takes two hands four seconds to lift 8xBL), they feel a gradually growing pressure like magnetic attraction toward you? That could work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
TK requires Concentrate; you'll need Compartmentalized Mind to use TK and your muscles at the same time.
Powers is actually quite clear about this part of Attraction/Repulsion (in contrast to the rest of its function). It's a remarkable departure, I can't think of another enhancement that changes the action used for an Advantage, but it's perfectly explicit about it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers, p. 83
Attraction/Repulsion: Your TK can only move things directly toward or away from you. Take a Ready maneuver to move an unresisting object, or an Attack maneuver to affect an active opponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Just guesstimating effects here. But, yes, I would say you need to establish a grapple before you can start pulling people towards you.
I appreciate it!
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Just found something else: Attraction/Repulsion is worth -30%, whereas only having one is -60%. If you have Attraction/Repulsion, it takes a Ready maneuver to switch between the two. Which means that TK 20: Attraction/Repulsion is 60 points, but TK 20: Attraction is 40 points, and adding TK: Repulsion as an Alternate Ability brings that to 48 points. And, since it takes a Ready action to switch between them either way, it seems like the AA build doesn't sacrifice anything.

Am I really the only person who's got a real problem with the way this limitation is written?
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:25 PM   #7
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Just found something else: Attraction/Repulsion is worth -30%, whereas only having one is -60%. If you have Attraction/Repulsion, it takes a Ready maneuver to switch between the two. Which means that TK 20: Attraction/Repulsion is 60 points, but TK 20: Attraction is 40 points, and adding TK: Repulsion as an Alternate Ability brings that to 48 points. And, since it takes a Ready action to switch between them either way, it seems like the AA build doesn't sacrifice anything.

Am I really the only person who's got a real problem with the way this limitation is written?
If you have Compartmentalized Mind and/or Extra Attack, you could affect two different targets in two different ways. With the AA build, you can't do that.
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:37 PM   #8
McAllister
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
If you have Compartmentalized Mind and/or Extra Attack, you could affect two different targets in two different ways. With the AA build, you can't do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers, p. 83
-30% for
Attraction/Repulsion (it takes a Ready
maneuver to switch between the two).
You'd think that, wouldn't you? But you actually can't. It seems like an unnecessary kick in the pants. -30% is already stingy if I'm losing the ability to "strike blows, manipulate objects or hold an enemy in place or prevent him from attacking," not to mention the ability to move myself freely via TK, but on top of that I need to make a Ready maneuver to switch between them. Even if I had Altered Time Rate and Extra Attack, I don't think I could do "Attack maneuver, pull someone, Ready maneuver, switch to pushing, actually let's go back to that Attack maneuver from before, push someone."
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Old 09-07-2016, 07:30 PM   #9
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
You'd think that, wouldn't you? But you actually can't. It seems like an unnecessary kick in the pants. -30% is already stingy if I'm losing the ability to "strike blows, manipulate objects or hold an enemy in place or prevent him from attacking," not to mention the ability to move myself freely via TK, but on top of that I need to make a Ready maneuver to switch between them. Even if I had Altered Time Rate and Extra Attack, I don't think I could do "Attack maneuver, pull someone, Ready maneuver, switch to pushing, actually let's go back to that Attack maneuver from before, push someone."
1 level of Reduced Time fixes that issue.
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Old 09-08-2016, 07:26 AM   #10
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: How does TK: Attraction work?

IDHMBWM, so I can't run the numbers, but I wonder how the pricing compares to Innate Attack with Emanation and damage limited to knockback only. Presumably you could pair this as an AA with an matching inverted (i.e. toward yourself) knockback attack.
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