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Old 12-03-2012, 04:01 PM   #21
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

We already have a thread on this: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=100712

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
It might be a bad idea on the battlefield (where backpedaling and trying to draw a melee weapon would probably be a better option), but it looks pretty darned useful for hunting.
Until the arrow bounces off the deer at 15 metres because he only pulled 10 lbs to draw it, or he spends eight hours tracking a lightly wounded animal until he loses the tiny blood trail. I don't believe in [Ranged Weapon] Sport skills for using real weapons, and am suspicious of [Ranged Weapon] Art, but if such skills exist he has them. The intriguing part is wondering what a less 'showy' use of these skills would look like! He is clearly talented and well trained, but he also wants to impress people.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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We already have a thread on this: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=100712


Until the arrow bounces off the deer at 15 metres because he only pulled 10 lbs to draw it, or he spends eight hours tracking a lightly wounded animal until he loses the tiny blood trail. I don't believe in [Ranged Weapon] Sport skills for using real weapons, and am suspicious of [Ranged Weapon] Art, but if such skills exist he has them. The intriguing part is wondering what a less 'showy' use of these skills would look like! He is clearly talented and well trained, but he also wants to impress people.
That's my thoughts exactly. He's a trick shooter, and likely of little use on the battle field with a bow that actually has some strength to it.
 
Old 12-03-2012, 04:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
I agree that accuracy at range is poor, but that's not the point. The technique is designed to put a lot of arrows on target in a short amount of time at relatively short ranges.
Except arrows aren't like bullets. With a bullet, every trigger pull gives me the same amount of power, so I can discard accuracy for putting lots of slugs into a target, and people do. But with a bow, you're also sacrificing strength. I mean, I can just pick up a handful of pebbles and shower a target, and that'll put more stones on a target than putting one in a sling, spinning it up, and then hurling it full-power at a target, but that doesn't mean just throwing handfuls of rocks at people is really a viable battle strategy. I don't see how this archery technique is really any different.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Arguably, though, based on his stance and release point, the archer is using "practical" or "primitive" archery techniques used by bow hunters since prehistoric dimes. In game terms, Bow skill.
Premodern hunters were rather interested in not losing arrows. That means you want arrows that hit and drop the target.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

...


Tried to ask my GM to hold the arrows like this so I wouldn't have to fast-draw...

He said no.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:17 PM   #26
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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...


Tried to ask my GM to hold the arrows like this so I wouldn't have to fast-draw...

He said no.
Drat. It is canonical that arrows stuck in the ground in front of you give a bonus, and Toadkiller Dog wrote the book! I have seen sources for military archers doing holding the bow and several arrows in their left hand ... I am not sure about his trick with arrows in the left hand.

Lars Andersen is very good at what he does, and I suspect that he can do some impressive and practical things when he is not showing off for the camera. I have never tried this kind of archery.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I'd like to see how effective that is against some decent-quality armour...
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:13 PM   #28
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I'd like to see how effective that is against some decent-quality armour...
Wasn't the mail that he shot at effectively butted mail, and notoriously bad against impaling attacks?
 
Old 12-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

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Wasn't the mail that he shot at effectively butted mail, and notoriously bad against impaling attacks?
I am pretty sure it was cheap Indian riveted maille. It looks right at a distance, but tests against it do not tell us how historical maille would have performed because "riveted" does not equal "historical".
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:03 AM   #30
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Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

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I'm inclined to call fraud on many of the claims in the video .
Respectfully, I'm afraid you'll have to recalibrate your BS detector.

It's depressingly easy to drive a bodkin or target head arrow through unpadded riveted iron mail, whether or not it's mounted on a board or worn. That's one of the the reason that mail was padded, and it's also one of the reasons that mail was abandoned in favor of lamellar or plate. So, no surprise there.

Bodkin head arrows have been found on medieval battlefields, in some cases imbedded in dead bodies. There have also been sheaves of bodkin point arrows found aboard the Mary Rose (16th century English warship, sank in battle with archers aboard). So, that's pretty good evidence that they were either designed for, or could be used in, battle. I will grant that something like a bodkin head would be easier on a typical archery target, and more importantly, easier to remove.

As for the rest of it, Lars Andersen seems to have done a very good job of researching and recreating historical speed shooting techniques. World records are carefully verified, so the chance of fraud is minimal.

I agree that there are serious trade offs he makes to get his remarkable speed. As far as I can tell is that he's not using a fixed anchor point for his shots, so his long range accuracy will be poor. More importantly, he's typically not fully drawing the bow, so range and damage will be badly impacted.

But, it only takes 65 pounds of bow draw weight to take down a deer, and at relatively close ranges you can still inflict some serious damage even with a weak bow of 40-45 pounds. Select for a strong archer and a strong bow and even a partially drawn bow might have enough force on it to kill a man.

And, as an infamous dictator once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own." The ability to use a bow as a suppression fire weapon might be useful in slowing an enemy down or keeping him at bay.

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Originally Posted by Mr Frost View Post
He is using a very weak grip on the string/arrow and is pushing the bow forward using what would be a very weak jab in boxing .
Primitive or "instinctive" archers often do this. It reduces hand shock and can counter the "twist" of the arrow as it flexes around the bow. It messes up accuracy though, unless you do it right.

Also, don't mistake a light grip on the string for a weak grip. I've seen trained shooters easily pull 120 pound longbows using just 3 fingers and you want your fingers to slip easily off the string to get good accuracy. You're seeing some serious bow skill there.

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Originally Posted by Mr Frost View Post
Third , I would like to know where it is recorded when Saracen archers were tested and had to be able to shoot 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds.
The Ottomans and Persians kept up their traditional archery skills well into the modern era. It could have been based on 18th or 19th century records.

Other than that, it could have been measured in relative terms, such as "He shot 6 arrows in the time it takes a fast horse to gallop 30 yards."

But, yeah, a bit of hyperbole on the part for the narrator.
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