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Old 10-27-2016, 09:16 PM   #41
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

Lungs alone are more than a sixth of the chest.
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Old 10-27-2016, 09:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Lungs alone are more than a sixth of the chest.
The hit location table says that 1/6th the time a strike to the chest (upper or lower) hits the vitals. And 1/6th the time a strike to the abdomen hits the vitals. Whatever GURPS has decided counts as the vitals takes up 1/6th of each portion. This is borne out by the fact that the pectoral plate, which covers vitals in the upper chest from the front, costs and weighs ~1/6th of what front only chest armour would weigh, accounting for some rounding to get to an even number.

This is also borne out by the fact that covering fractions of other areas costs and weighs as much as that fraction of the full area. Something that covers 1/6th the arm costs and weighs 1/6th what a full set of arm armour would weigh.

Maybe the lungs take up more than 1/6th the chest, but for playability GURPS has decided that the portion that counts as a "vitals" hit accounts for no more than 1/6th the total area in all three torso hit locations. If it they had decided it took up 2/6ths the space or 3/6ths the space then you'd hit the vitals 2/6 or 3/6 times.
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Old 10-27-2016, 10:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

I think these are unrelated and just happen to be both 1 on 1d. The skull definitely isn't covered by 1/6th face armor, but it is the same chance. A shot that passes between ribs or hits the illiac artery or something is what that 1 in 1d represents. This is a totally different thing than the pectoral giving 1/6 coverage to the upper chest.
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Old 10-28-2016, 01:47 AM   #44
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
The hit location table says that 1/6th the time a strike to the chest (upper or lower) hits the vitals. And 1/6th the time a strike to the abdomen hits the vitals. Whatever GURPS has decided counts as the vitals takes up 1/6th of each portion.
Actually, it doesn't. It means that 1/6 armor covers the hit location 'vitals'. In addition, attacks that target the hit location 'chest' and 'abdomen' have a 1/6 chance of being treated as vitals hits. That doesn't mean you're hitting the vitals location (it's actually impossible to hit the vitals location when targeting the abdomen, they don't overlap), it means there are 'vitals' that are not located in the vitals hit location.
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Old 10-28-2016, 07:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I think these are unrelated and just happen to be both 1 on 1d. The skull definitely isn't covered by 1/6th face armor, but it is the same chance. A shot that passes between ribs or hits the illiac artery or something is what that 1 in 1d represents. This is a totally different thing than the pectoral giving 1/6 coverage to the upper chest.
You only hit the skull 1/6th the time on a face hit if you're using a piercing attack and hit the nose. And arguably the nose is 1/6th the face after some rounding for playability.

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Actually, it doesn't. It means that 1/6 armor covers the hit location 'vitals'. In addition, attacks that target the hit location 'chest' and 'abdomen' have a 1/6 chance of being treated as vitals hits. That doesn't mean you're hitting the vitals location (it's actually impossible to hit the vitals location when targeting the abdomen, they don't overlap), it means there are 'vitals' that are not located in the vitals hit location.
I don't see how this makes sense logically. You can get armor to cover the vitals. It protects the torso as a whole 1/6th the time. You can get lucky and hit the vitals 1/6th the time. Are you suggesting that despite armouring the area there are two separate rolls? On for armour and one to see if you hit the vitals?

Again, if there's a magic second set of vitals why aren't they mentioned (at an extra -2 for familiarity) when the book describes getting past a pectoral plate, or indeed other partial armor coverage. Instead it mentions trying to go through the armour gap.

If I put armor on my left forearm, and a random hit lands on my left forearm the armor protects. I don't have a magic second left forearm that's unarmored.

And you can hit the vitals when targeting the abdomen, 1/6th the time...
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Old 10-28-2016, 08:18 AM   #46
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
The hit location table says that 1/6th the time a strike to the chest (upper or lower) hits the vitals. And 1/6th the time a strike to the abdomen hits the vitals. Whatever GURPS has decided counts as the vitals takes up 1/6th of each portion.
I think the emphasized part of the final sentence there is incorrect.

More correct would be whatever GURPS has decided counts as vitals has a secondary hit likelihood of 1/6. GURPS locations hit penalties are not based on strict size, nor does a chance of secondary hit translate directly from a primary hit penalty.

My understanding of the Basic and Low Tech rules gives me the feeling that there is some misunderstanding of or error in the rules for pectoral plates, but I don't have Pyramid. Could you quote the relevant rule?
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Old 10-28-2016, 08:26 AM   #47
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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I think the emphasized part of the final sentence there is incorrect.

More correct would be whatever GURPS has decided counts as vitals has a secondary hit likelihood of 1/6. GURPS locations hit penalties are not based on strict size, nor does a chance of secondary hit translate directly from a primary hit penalty.

My understanding of the Basic and Low Tech rules gives me the feeling that there is some misunderstanding of or error in the rules for pectoral plates, but I don't have Pyramid. Could you quote the relevant rule?
It's actually also in low tech instant armour.

Quote:
A pectoral is a small chest plate that guards against attacks
on the vitals. It also has a chance of protecting the upper chest
(location 9 but not 10), which can be targeted at -1; this
increases with the plate’s size. Historical examples usually covered
the front, not the back, and were held in place by straps.
Reading this again, it reads like it protects the vitals all the time as long as that face (front/back is covered)

It doesn't say anything about not protecting the vitals if the hit strikes the lower chest or abdomen. But even if it didn't, an extra 1/6th on those sections should solve that problem.
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Old 10-28-2016, 09:35 AM   #48
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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It's actually also in low tech instant armour.

Reading this again, it reads like it protects the vitals all the time as long as that face (front/back is covered)

It doesn't say anything about not protecting the vitals if the hit strikes the lower chest or abdomen. But even if it didn't, an extra 1/6th on those sections should solve that problem.
Thanks for the quote. By the description, the standard item protects from the front only, against attacks targeting the Vitals. It's a generous rule to have it require only 1/6 coverage, but alright.

I do note that the description of the item says it protects from 'attacks' to the vitals. The hits to vitals produced by chance from hits to the torso result from attacks to the torso, due to vitals being contained within the torso. These hits do not come from 'attacks to' the vitals, they come from attacks to the torso, and so are not covered by the pectoral thingee.
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:07 AM   #49
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Thanks for the quote. By the description, the standard item protects from the front only, against attacks targeting the Vitals. It's a generous rule to have it require only 1/6 coverage, but alright.

I do note that the description of the item says it protects from 'attacks' to the vitals. The hits to vitals produced by chance from hits to the torso result from attacks to the torso, due to vitals being contained within the torso. These hits do not come from 'attacks to' the vitals, they come from attacks to the torso, and so are not covered by the pectoral thingee.
It still doesn't work out logically though. There are vitals in the torso, 1/6th the time you hit them. Maybe you got lucky and hit the heart. But with a pectoral plate the heart, and probably a lot more, is covered. And somehow it's ignored on a random hit but not when you target the vitals directly?

Again, there's a RAW way to get around the DR of the plate. You go through the armour chinks. If there was a second set of magic vitals, even if they are diffuse through out the torso, then why arn't they targetable on purpose but you can do it by accident?

GURPS will let you target something as small as a vein or an eyeball on a person.

But a pectoral plate, despite covering a significant portion of the vitals (I'd argue that it's close enough to 100% to be below system resolution) offers absolutely no protection to the vitals when targeted randomly?

I'm not saying that you don't hit the vitals if there's a pectoral plate. What I'm saying is that if you do get lucky, you've still got to go through the added DR. The idea that there's a 1/6th chance to hit the vitals and have 0DR to deal with on an unarmoured man, and there's also a 1/6th chance to hit the vitals and somehow ignore DR on a target with a big steel plate covering the vitals makes no sense.

EDIT:
Quote:
These hits do not come from 'attacks to' the vitals, they come from attacks to the torso, and so are not covered by the pectoral thingee.
If I stab someone in the heart and they've got a 6DR pectoral plate, then I've got 6DR to deal with. If I get lucky and hit it by accident while aiming for the larger target of the torso, I somehow ignore the plate between my sword and the heart? Just because I got lucky?

Last edited by Calvin; 10-28-2016 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:16 AM   #50
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Default Re: Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

When does the pectoral give DR to the torso? As written it says 1/6th of the time, so that can't be same as the 1/6th chance of a lucky vitals hit, because if it was it wouldn't be giving any torso DR ever.
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