[Meta-Game] Jagerkin, the Zelgadis Problem, and Super's Children

[Michael Hopcroft]

Some brief discussion both of the upcoming Girl Genius RPG (Powered by GURPS -- people seem to stubbornly resist the idea of calling it GURPS Girl Genius) and of the world of the Foglios' steampunk fantasy series has led me to something I have been specualting about for a long time in a lot of different contexts -- the problem of what humans who have had their phsyical structures altered pass on to their children if they have any.

It began with the Jagerkin: men (and occasionally women) who had been transofrmed by Mad Science into powerful soldier-types. The Jagers are much beloved by Girl Genius fans -- they're menacing but also disarmingly sweet at the same time. They perform all sorts of mayhem with innocent, childlike glee. They're irresistible -- at least to us. In their own world the sight of one is likely to send most folk fleeing in terror. So I posited the question of what the child of a Jager would be like -- human or Jager?

As I posted that, I realzied this was related to something anime fans have been wrestlign with for almost ten years now, which I call The Zelgadis Problem. Zelgadis Graywards, one of the main characters in the Slayers TV series, is a young man who has been transofrmed by magic into a "chimera" -- his essence has been fused with those of a rock golem and "brass demon", giving him some of the powers and characteristics of each. It is a transformation he deeply resents because he believes he is now a hideous monster. The odd thing is that everyone else, particularly female Slayers fans, thinks he's the epitome of cool. And Amelia, a princess who travels with the group and seems to labor under the misconception that she is a superheroine, loves him dearly. Almost everybody in the fandom is rooting for them to marry. If they do, can they have children, and would they be humans, chimeras, or would it be different each time?

And after that, I realzied this question has been around as long as there have been characters who have gained superpowers through physical alteration. And many of them have had children.

So, is there a logical way to decide whether certain traits that were not part of a person's original makeup are passed on to children?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

So, is there a logical way to decide whether certain traits that were not part of a person's original makeup are passed on to children?

Sure. Traits will be inherited if a mechanism exists for inheritance, and that method actually applies to a particular child ;). Some examples:

Genetic modifications, if they extend to modifying reproductive organisms, may be inherited.
If powers come from exposure to a source, and the parent counts as a source, the child is likely to be exposed and thus affected. This is particularly true if the mother is a source.
Magical curses sometimes follow the law of contagion, in which case it will happily jump from generation to generation.

[William]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

So, is there a logical way to decide whether certain traits that were not part of a person's original makeup are passed on to children?

Yes. Genes.

If a person's genetic structure has been altered -- including his/her gametes -- the alterations will be passed to their children if the change affected both members of the chromosomal pair(s) involved, or all relevant sequences in their gametes. The trait has a 50% chance of being passed if only one member of each chromosomal pair was changed in the gamete-producing cells of the parent's body. (In this case the trait is necessarily dominant over human traits.)

Whether the traits manifest in the child depend on whether the child is homozygous (both parents contribute a similar gene) or heterozygous (only one parent contributed an altered gene) and, in the latter case, if the trait is dominant or recessive. Heterozygous offspring may exhibit intermediate phenotypes (milder versions of the relevant traits).

At a more fantastic level, apply analogous logic. If an alteration suffuses every cell of a person's body, including their seed, it will probably be passed on, and may or may not manifest according to whether both parents contributed and whether the change suppresses, or is suppressed by, the natural human characteristics.

Zelgadis' transformation has apparently changed some parts of him but not necessarily all. Suppose for example that a rock golem cannot mate with a human but a brass demon can; his offspring with Amelia might be 3/4 human and 1/4 brass demon, a child likely to be mostly human with some brass demon traits. In a fantasy campaign, these might erupt under stress and let the child live a relatively normal life otherwise. On the other hand, it might have been easier to specify parts of him to fuse -- the skin of a rock golem, etc. -- in which case his testes would probably be normal human.

If you were Zelgadis, though, would you risk it?

Jagerkin are probably more thoroughly transformed, though I'm less certain as to their origins. They appear to desire human females (well. Humanoid females, depending on whatever von Pinn is). Their offspring, should they be capable of producing any (somehow I imagine new Jagers are constructed, or, indeed, brewed, rather than born), would probably be heterozygously dominant, to the point that a Jager mother would be required to survive gestation. However, I'm going on much less information there.

[William]

Or, yeah, what Anthony said (in a lot fewer words ^_^ ).

[Michael Hopcroft]

Originally Posted by William

Yes. Genes.

If a person's genetic structure has been altered -- including his/her gametes -- the alterations will be passed to their children if the change affected both members of the chromosomal pair(s) involved, or all relevant sequences in their gametes. The trait has a 50% chance of being passed if only one member of each chromosomal pair was changed in the gamete-producing cells of the parent's body. (In this case the trait is necessarily dominant over human traits.)

Whether the traits manifest in the child depend on whether the child is homozygous (both parents contribute a similar gene) or heterozygous (only one parent contributed an altered gene) and, in the latter case, if the trait is dominant or recessive. Heterozygous offspring may exhibit intermediate phenotypes (milder versions of the relevant traits).

At a more fantastic level, apply analogous logic. If an alteration suffuses every cell of a person's body, including their seed, it will probably be passed on, and may or may not manifest according to whether both parents contributed and whether the change suppresses, or is suppressed by, the natural human characteristics.

The basic idea seems to be there, but I don't quite understand all of it.

Zelgadis' transformation has apparently changed some parts of him but not necessarily all. Suppose for example that a rock golem cannot mate with a human but a brass demon can; his offspring with Amelia might be 3/4 human and 1/4 brass demon, a child likely to be mostly human with some brass demon traits. In a fantasy campaign, these might erupt under stress and let the child live a relatively normal life otherwise. On the other hand, it might have been easier to specify parts of him to fuse -- the skin of a rock golem, etc. -- in which case his testes would probably be normal human.

If you were Zelgadis, though, would you risk it?

Take one good look at Amelia wil Tesla Seyruun and you'll have the answer to that question. 8^) Wow. Zelgadis is seeking a reversal of his condition for most of the series, partly because he believes that he cannot love the way he would want to as he is. The problem is that Amelia, not to mention just about every Slayers femfan I've ever met, would take him as he is in a heartbeat. As in "lock the door behind us and drop off some food twice a day for the next three weeks".

[William]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

The basic idea seems to be there, but I don't quite understand all of it.

If the person's sex organs had their genes changed, the change is likely to pass on to their child. Whether the child exhibits the change depends on what the other parent's genes have to say about it. Marvel-style mutants will almost certainly pass on their traits to their children, though some of those genes may lie dormant or be expressed differently.

Anthony covered the supers and fantasy versions very neatly: did you become a Blood Magician from being touched by the Red God? Then your baby probably won't be a Blood Magician. But if you can become a Blood Magician from getting bled on by a Blood Magician, the baby is likely to be born a Blood Magician due to its contact with your bodily fluids.

[Archangel Beth]

According to what Kaja said on the Girl Genius fan mailing list, the Jagers are created via potion -- the "Jagerbrau," as that list calls it.

Me, I'd make the Jagerkin Sterile. And probably Zelgadis, too. (And this is the guy who has wire for hair and scrubs himself with sandpaper. I'm not sure that he could have a normal relationship with a softskin without going into marital aid territory that the series just isn't going to think about...)

The Jagers are also bordering on the "fantasy, but all those teeth, claws, and inhuman strength would make a physical relationship problematic."

...hm. A Marital Art skill for tricky cross-species relationships?

*attempts to look innocent*

[Michael Hopcroft]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

According to what Kaja said on the Girl Genius fan mailing list, the Jagers are created via potion -- the "Jagerbrau," as that list calls it.

Me, I'd make the Jagerkin Sterile.

That would be logical, but when are Sparks logical? And besides, what's the fun in that?

And probably Zelgadis, too. (And this is the guy who has wire for hair and scrubs himself with sandpaper. I'm not sure that he could have a normal relationship with a softskin without going into marital aid territory that the series just isn't going to think about...)

Neccesarily? One could use sandpaper on marble for the speciifc purpose of making it smooth to the touch. Part so Zelgadis' skin are softer than other parts -- the area aroung his mouth, for example, would have to be fairly flexible otherwise speech and food consumption would be impossible. Kissing Zel would be like tasting soft, warm stone -- a not-neccesarily-unpleasant experience especially if that's what you're jonesing for.

And if Kanazaka has never thought about those questions, believe me the fandom has....

Rezo, the guy who transofrmed Zelgadis, wouldn't have thought to sterlize him even if he had that level of fine control -- he didn't expect him to lvie long enough for it to be an issue, as he expected Zel to die with the rest of Mankind when he achieved his aims. Thoroughgoing bastard, that Rezo. No matter how many times you kill him, he's still a bastard....

The Jagers are also bordering on the "fantasy, but all those teeth, claws, and inhuman strength would make a physical relationship problematic."

...hm. A Marital Art skill for tricky cross-species relationships?

*attempts to look innocent*

Possibility. Amelia might not need it as much as you would think, but I'm sure it would help. If we are going to go that route, that skill would certainly be needed by characters like Lois Lane, ChiChi, Bulma, and whoever Johnny Storm's steady girlfriend turns out to be. Numerous sets of superpowers pose complications of this sort, not just super-strength and toughness.

Training over time could be involved too, and part of it is on the powered character's end too. Many of the problems Larry Niven cited in his essay could be solved with willpower, and super-technolgoy could solve some of the others (it seems illogical that STAR Labs would not have long ago been able to come up with super-condoms given the resources at their disposal and their need to keep Superman happy).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

Rezo, the guy who transofrmed Zelgadis, wouldn't have thought to sterlize him even if he had that level of fine control.

However, it's also rather likely that he didn't make any effort to not sterilize Zelgadis, and the default assumption for chimeras and similar creatures should be 'incapable of reproducing'. Adding the ability to reproduce is basically extra effort.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

So, is there a logical way to decide whether certain traits that were not part of a person's original makeup are passed on to children?

As a general rule I would say that you should just choose what you want. and here is why:

If using DNA alterations to explain the changes (which I would also do). Even though DNA (as shown by William) can transfer to a kid you have to remember that you have to have quite similair DNA in order to produce an opspring at all (I think it can't have more than 10% de-similarities).
As there is no "real world examples" of "mutants" it's hard to tell how big an alteration of your DNA special abilities and powers would give. (A chimp has about 97% similarity with a human but that doesn't mean a human who can become invisible has more than 50%.)
One could say "almost none at all", and rule that every power is psionic/magical in nature, concious or unconcious.
Or you can rule that they every power is a direct alteration of the DNA, following the rules of DNA. This opens up for some interesting possibiliets for gene-splicing and DNA alterations making it possible to alter the powers of persons and making new ones, artificially (creating/breeding persons with specific abilities).

However you could also say that it has nothing to do with DNA and be purely magical/psychic in origin. And again, the choice is all yours. As mentioned by Anthony it could just as well carrie to a child as not.