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Old 01-13-2011, 11:07 PM   #31
Darekun
 
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

My own objection to GURPS Lite is that it isn't low-res, just incomplete. For example, GURPS Ultra-Lite is very low-res, but complete. It's a simpler game. GURPS Lite, OTOH, is a slice of full GURPS. Hm, Frosty, have you looked at GURPS Ultra-Lite?

Of course, I want a system that generally lets me tune the res to the campaign. GURPS isn't that system; for the most part, it doesn't change res, instead it changes completeness. So Lite actually works as a better demo the way it is, that's just not a good thing :J

If, for example, you had a system that implemented tunable res with "redundant" rules modules of varying length/res/etc, then you could list only the lowest-res rules modules and have a complete, Lite-sized game. The result would play more like Risus(which is about Lite-sized, but complete, because it's always low-res).



One way to naively interpret an ROF stat would be multiple attack rolls per action. That's unwieldy when rolling actual dice, but effective.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
One thing Lite is useful for is as a quick reference for players who don't own the Basic Set, but are playing in a full GURPS game.
IIRC, it's not compatible enough for that. When I assumed that would work and ran an online game where one player only had Lite, his character ended up incompatible. (Something to do with medical skills, I thinků)



For a Lite magic, I think Hawthorne magic(the system in G: Magic) is entirely the wrong way to go. It's specifically oriented toward vast rules word-counts. Maybe stripped down and "canned" builds of Control and Create from Powers?
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:18 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Or do I have to buy one of the books first, to find out?
Well, actually that's kind of the point - GURPS books are meant to be bought, since GURPS is a commercial book and the authors write them hoping to earn some money.

Quote:
Well, GURPS does stand for "Generic Universal RolePlaying System", does it not?
Yes, it is called GURPS, not FURPS, because it's not supposed to be free. You can find several free games on the net.

Quote:
So, doesn't that mean GURPS Lite Fourth Edition should be called RPS Lite Fourth Edition instead?
(...)
Except that you have to resort to third-party content and fan sources to make parts of the game work.
Your complaints appear totally absurd to me. You are actually complaining that a free, "demo" booklet does not suit your, quite high, expectations? It's not like you paid for it, I don't see how you can whine about it.

Let me explain that GURPS Lite is not a free, standalone game, it's just the "demo" for GURPS, an introductory tool for new players.
But I think you already know that... actually, I am starting to think you came here on bad faith. Either that, or you have really weird ideas about RPGs, and commercial books/games in general.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:22 AM   #33
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darekun View Post
My own objection to GURPS Lite is that it isn't low-res, just incomplete. For example, GURPS Ultra-Lite is very low-res, but complete. It's a simpler game.
Yes, that's right.
Actually I think that both games are not particularly good a "simple, standalone games". After all, why they should be? This is hardly the main concern of GURPS. And I doubt that it is really possible to build a game which works very well on many different "resolutions". Simple games make assumptions and design choices which are fundamentally different from those of "complex" games.

There are plenty of simple (and very simple) games around, many of them are free, too, and I think they work better than GURPS Ultra-Lite or Lite for this purpose. (They better do, since it's the only thing they can do!)

E.g., if I want to play a game simpler than chess, I will play checkers... I won't play chess with just 4 pieces. And if I want to play a simple RPG for a quick evening of play, I'd probably choose Risus, or the basic rules of Fudge, rather than GURPS Lite.
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Old 01-14-2011, 06:22 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Serious question here: In a situation like this, when somebody is looking for the stats of something contained either in the Basic Set, or in the splatbooks, what are other posters allowed to tell them and what are we not allowed to tell them?

I've seen a decent number of threads that provide signposts for further reference ("Check out page XX in High Tech for SMG stats"). I think I've also seen a thread here and there which simply said the stat ("Here is the stat for one SMG...").

If it's for one single thing (as opposed to, say, requesting an entire table of data), is it okay with SJGames if we share limited amounts of stats and info from the splatbooks? Or should we limit ourselves to just saying "go and refer to this splatbook"?
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:59 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

I am very disappointed that the free rules do not include rules for explosions and stats for horses. Otherwise, why are the Demolitions and Riding skills there? I hoped to run "Rambo Rides Again", but GURPS Lite has FAILED me.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:13 AM   #36
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolemnGolem View Post
If it's for one single thing (as opposed to, say, requesting an entire table of data), is it okay with SJGames if we share limited amounts of stats and info from the splatbooks? Or should we limit ourselves to just saying "go and refer to this splatbook"?
The copyright issues about quotation, "fair use" and so on, are like quantum physics: so complicated that nobody can actually understand them, even if they say they do, they're just pretending, to save face :)
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by copeab View Post
4e Lite is a bit less generic than 3e Lite.
Really? My impression of GURPS Lite Fourth Editon was that it was more generic than GURPS Lite Third Edition. But, then again, I've spent more time with 4e Lite and only eyeball 3e Lite on occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by copeab View Post
4e Lite doesn't have any magic rules (although one could argue the 3eL rules are so minimal they aren't of much use) and 4eL devotes space to the World Jumper advantage which is of extremely limited value outside of, oh, an Infinite Worlds campaign).
Oh, man, I remember the first time I read the entry on the "World Jumper" advantage.

To this day, it still makes me think, "What the ####…"

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Originally Posted by copeab View Post
The point of all this is that something always has to be left out and something included of questionable value.
But that still doesn't make my job as the GM any easier. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
You make a valid point but it's not that easy... For instance a car is something you can try out and _then_ decide if you buy/take it. If you get a complete document for "trying it out", you already have all the information and don't need to buy something else.
All that I'm asking for is a functional demo system, not a half-baked mishmash of copypasta'd standard GURPS mechanics and simplified GURPS mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
But I would definitely agree with you that there is some content in Lite that could be better left out, because it's not of much use for Lite-only players, anyway.
And for that, I thank you.

My issue isn't that I have to pay to get the real deal, my issue is that I have parts of the real deal and parts of the simplified deal. Unfortunately, you need all of either deal just to run an adventure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
At least they should have made clear in the introduction, that some things are just samples of what could be, rather than being useful in an actual Lite-Game.
I would prefer it if they didn't reference advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera in the other books at all, especially if they can't be utilised properly.

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Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
IMHO it's bad style that they did not make that clear in the beginning, though of course it's free and overall still a good product.
It's bad style that the author included the content at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSam View Post
Also they should have pointed out, that it's a more abstract easy-version of the game, where indeed you could treat a SMG (more or less) just like a Rifle, letting out all details.

Maybe in an little updated version of Lite, they could extend the introduction with respect to that.
Not to sound like a broken record, but I would prefer it if they didn't reference advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera in the other books at all, especially if they can't be utilised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerron View Post
As mentioned, Lite is mostly for players.
I remember agreeing with sir_pudding on that. As a reference for players, GURPS Lite Fourth Edition is alright. As a reference for a GM, it's a nightmare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerron View Post
The way it's set up, it can be used as the only resource for a GM as well, but this will be a very basic and limited game, like a demo. Which is exactly what you're running in to. Lite is excellent for letting players have enough rules to join your game, without everyone needing to buy expensive books. To get all of the functionality out the 500 page rules, *someone* has to buy them. Those computer games have the full program, you just can't use all the stuff or go to all the places without the secret code, and that costs money. It's a decent strategy to get sales, and it also helps increase the community feeling of the game. I tend to think it's a great idea, even if it is a quite limited idea with limited functionality, its better than any other game company does (except now, some of them are copycating).
I agree with everything you say and see the logic behind it, I just don't like how it was particularly executed with GURPS Lite Fourth Edition.

I'm not expecting everything for free, all I expect is a functional system demo of the real deal. Something that can stand up on its own two legs without being supported of third-party resources and overshadowed by its bigger brothers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerron View Post
I'm sorry if you feel you need more for free.
OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerron View Post
There's all sorts of ways to get free things, this one happens to be legal. If you really want to play in a GURPS game before you invest, perhaps a nice PbP game would be the ticket? There's several around, and most (if not all) of them would accept someone with just the Lite rules.
I mentioned in another of my threads that I participated as a player in an adventure that used GURPS Lite Fourth Edition. I'm not sure if the GM (Naborr) had access to other official GURPS sources, but he seemed to know what he was doing. Unfortunately, the RP died of inactivity before anything more than mildly interesting could happen, but the seed of GURPS was sown and I began to research into it myself.

EDIT: More coming later.

Last edited by Frosty; 01-14-2011 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:26 AM   #38
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
I am very disappointed that the free rules do not include rules for explosions and stats for horses. Otherwise, why are the Demolitions and Riding skills there? I hoped to run "Rambo Rides Again", but GURPS Lite has FAILED me.
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Sorry if you were not kidding, but I found it hilarious!

Only to give a "up" for the little: SJGames cared to put little in a lot of diferent languages. Thanks for it my brazilian friends (some of then dont understand a single word of english) could be introduced to GURPS.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:34 AM   #39
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
But that still doesn't make my job as the GM any easier. :/
IMO GURPS Little is a help ONLY to introduce NEW players. The GM MUST have the TWO Basic Sets. I never saw any other RPG that give you ANY little piece of rule for free (but I actualy did not played more than 6 RPGs). So I think that Little is great in this matter.

My suggestion is: if you want to GM a game, buy the books and tell to your players to know/read the little rules section on GURPS Little and make the PCs togheter to your players using your full book.

I GM GURPS 4th for the same group for almost 5 years now and until today, when we will begin a new campaing I make the PCs and present then to my players choise who will play what. Normaly I have 4 players and present 8 PCs. Wy I do this? First because I want that all characters are 100% compatible in my setting, in the story and beteween each other. Second because my players hate to read english and dont and to know the rules in detail.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:38 AM   #40
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Well, whining about free stuff is inappropriate in my book, but raising the concern of what is GURPS Lite for is interesting.

I personnaly never heard of someone running a game with GURPS Lite.

What I find GURPS Lite useful for is:



1. As a GM comming from other systems, evaluating what the full GURPS will feel like before buying the whole stuff.

I mean, there are reviews over the net that grossly explain how you roll the dice, but actually having a sample of the rules explaining how you build a character, how you test a skill and how you apply damage is far better to make an educated opinion.

As for the fact that there is a SMG skill and no SMG gear stats, well, it just says that Gun is a subclassed skill and that there is provision for SMGs. So don't worry, if you actually buy books, there will be SMGs and rules to use them.



2. As a GURPS GM having the full system, when short in time to make PCs or assist players, I would ask them to try to build their character concept with Lite.

Let's say it's wednesday and a gaming session is planned for friday night. I receive an email from player A telling me that a friend of his would like to join the game.
I don't mind, but I have no character left and no time to build one until friday.

I can tell player A, who is reasonably familiar with GURPS mechanics, to go with Lite and make a basic character up to 100 character points with/for his friend, leaving the blanks that need being filled with the full GURPS books.
It's still a time saver if 75 points has been spent. We can just adjust and spend the remaining 25 points before the session.
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