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Old 09-28-2019, 08:18 PM   #21
nudj
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
I'd be cautious using that for building powers, because the reduced FP cost is countered by it becoming a sorcery spell and thus having a FP cost there.
But the sorcery fatigue cost is part of the sorcery limitation. I’m pretty sure what I did is RAW but I do agree that the fatigue part might be dangerous in general, and the Skills to Advantages Pyramid article that this came from specifically warns not to treat reduced fatigue lightly.

However in this case, where we all know Strength is priced too high in certain ranges, I hardly think it’s imbalanced for a supers campaign. It’s also not illegal.
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
As for KYOS, I really do not like the progression because it violates the logic behind strength in GURPS.
What logic?
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:24 PM   #23
nudj
 
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It changes the meaning ST values, certainly. Violates? No more than Bunnies and Burrows violated things.

In truth KYOS fixes a great many things to work much more like 4 color (even sci-fi) action does. It pulls GURPS a bit from its more simulationist roots but in favor of making it much easier to handle enormous power differences.

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with equipment that uses values that increase linearly with power. If you "log-ify" equipment, everything works rather nicely.
And even if you don’t log-ify tech and just buy tons of Striking ST, it still solves so many problems that it is superior IMO. The ST rolls and innate attack balance is good and swing damage being twice thrust sucks both realistically and cinematically
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Old 09-29-2019, 04:17 AM   #24
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I think that a better way of doing Super-ST would be to treat it as a 30 CP/level advantage (with a maximum level equal to (ST-20)) that increases Lifting ST and Striking ST by 10 per level when they spend 1 FP. It would allow for a smoother progression.

Level 1: ST 21/31
Level 2: ST 22/42
Level 3: ST 23/53
Level 4: ST 24/64
Level 5: ST 25/75
Level 6: ST 26/86
Level 7: ST 27/97
Level 8: ST 28/108
Level 9: ST 29/119
Level 10: ST 30/130
That's well and good for low levels of Super ST, but it leaves very strong characters paying vast amounts again (rather than merely very large amounts).
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Old 09-29-2019, 07:44 AM   #25
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

True, but I am not sure that we really need to represent such extremes in ST with Super-ST. We could instead use a modifed Ultrapower (Cosmic, No die roll required, +100%; Reliable, +10, +50%) [125] and Regeneration (Extreme; FP Only, +0%) [150]. Since Ultrapower's capabilities are based of the abilities of the character, we would give a character ST 20 [100], HP 40 [40], Lifting ST+20 [60], and Striking ST+20 [100]. Since the Super Value of 20 is 5,000, we would define anything up to that for ST-based feats as Titanic and anything beyond that as Legendary (Reliable +10 allows it to be used in combat without penalty because it cancels out the -10 penalty for combat). With that combination, we could easily gain the effects of Super-ST 20 [900] for 575 CP, without any rolling required, with the character capable of doing it once per turn because they recover 40 FP per turn.
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Old 09-29-2019, 10:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
True, but I am not sure that we really need to represent such extremes in ST with Super-ST. We could instead use a modifed Ultrapower (Cosmic, No die roll required, +100%; Reliable, +10, +50%) [125] and Regeneration (Extreme; FP Only, +0%) [150]. Since Ultrapower's capabilities are based of the abilities of the character, we would give a character ST 20 [100], HP 40 [40], Lifting ST+20 [60], and Striking ST+20 [100]. Since the Super Value of 20 is 5,000, we would define anything up to that for ST-based feats as Titanic and anything beyond that as Legendary (Reliable +10 allows it to be used in combat without penalty because it cancels out the -10 penalty for combat). With that combination, we could easily gain the effects of Super-ST 20 [900] for 575 CP, without any rolling required, with the character capable of doing it once per turn because they recover 40 FP per turn.
I think you're confusing scope and intensity, as used by those rules. You're also using rules for one-off special effects for something that should be routine for the character. Also, I think that to Regenerate 40FP/turn you'll need 40FP - while the wording is unclear I doubt the intent is that you get the faster FP regen rate because you have 20+ HP (not that it matters for this build). Oh, and because margin of success matters, you still have to roll, and you risk crippling your power. You've also made a character that essentially never gets fatigued, by the way - not something that's standard, let alone universal, for strong supers performing amazing feats of strength.

I think you'd be better off simply making Super ST cheaper if you think it's not worth the price.
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Old 09-29-2019, 10:06 PM   #27
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

There's a number of ways to tackle the Super-ST problem that have been tackled before.

There's the GURPS nugget at TBone's site that has a declining cost for ST. So

Up to to ST 20, ST costs 10/level (standard)
ST 21 to 30, ST costs 5/level
ST 31 to 70, ST costs 5 points per +2 ST
ST 71 to 100, ST costs 5 points per +3 ST
ST 101 to 200, ST costs 5/level
ST 21 to 30, ST costs 5/level
ST 201 to 300, ST costs 5/level

or

ST 15 costs 50 points
ST 20 costs 100 points
ST 30 costs 150 points
ST 50 costs 200 points
ST 70 costs 250 points
ST 100 costs 300 points
ST 150 costs 350 points
ST 200 costs 400 points
ST 300 costs 450 points

Every *10 ST past that costs 300 points.

That has the drawback of perhaps being much too cheap.

Alternately, create an advantage that multiplies ST. I'd recommend something that matches the Size/Speed/Range scale, with 6 levels for every multiple of ten, just like Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) in GURPS Supers. So a character with a base ST of 14 and Super ST 6 would have an effective ST (and HP) of 140.

That's kind of how Super Effort works. if you look at ST with the Super Effort enhancement, once it gets going you've got an advantage that boosts External ST by 10* for every six levels, with each level costing 40 points. E.G., ST +10/+100 costs 400 points, ST +16/+1,000 costs 640 points - an extra 240 points to boost ST by a multiple of 10. As written, there is an initial down payment of 160 points, which can be thought of as a stealth Unusual Background cost.

Exactly how to price such an overall advantage is a little tricky. The GURPS Nugget suggests 50/level. IT(DR) in Supers costs effectively 25 per level to boost HP. Since HP costs 1/5 of all Strength, a Super ST advantage that boosted all ST might cost 125/level or 750 to multiply ST by 10. Personally I'd lean toward 100/level - that makes it useful for characters with 21+ ST but not those in the normal human range.
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Old 09-29-2019, 10:22 PM   #28
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

Another solution would be to have Super ST being a separate advantage, worth 80 CP/level, with each level doubling ST, and costing 1 FP per use. Character could purchase a maximum of (ST - 20) levels of Super ST.

Level 1: 21/42
Level 2: 22/88
Level 3: 23/184
Level 4: 24/384
Level 5: 25/800

and so on...
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Old 09-30-2019, 06:43 AM   #29
naloth
 
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Another solution would be to have Super ST being a separate advantage, worth 80 CP/level, with each level doubling ST, and costing 1 FP per use. Character could purchase a maximum of (ST - 20) levels of Super ST.
While this might be more ascetically pleasing, it still suffers from the same general problems as the normal SuperST. It's a lot of points for something you either can't use a lot (fatigue limitations), would only use on a foe that can't really defend (otherwise you'll be whiffing and puffing before you land a hit), or you'll have the points and additional abilities to ignore the fatigue limitation (fatigue regeneration? lots of fatigue? super luck?).
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Old 09-30-2019, 11:16 AM   #30
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Default Re: Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
While this might be more ascetically pleasing, it still suffers from the same general problems as the normal SuperST. It's a lot of points for something you either can't use a lot (fatigue limitations), would only use on a foe that can't really defend (otherwise you'll be whiffing and puffing before you land a hit), or you'll have the points and additional abilities to ignore the fatigue limitation (fatigue regeneration? lots of fatigue? super luck?).
Or you have ER (Super; Super ST, -50%) [1.5/level]. ER 20 would allow for a decently long fight before tapping into FP.
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