Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Thrust for a ST 10 person is 1d-2, so a punch is 1d-3.

Yes! Thanks for the correction. I really don't have my books at hand...

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes! Thanks for the correction. I really don't have my books at hand...

No problem. I've been at this an embarrassingly long time, for someone in his early 30s.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I tend to think the hit location penalties are too high. Here is a post where Kromm explains the reasoning behind the penalties, and I find myself disagreeing with some of the reasoning there, which I believe results in hit location penalties that are too high.

The problem you're pointing out applies even to skilled fighters. The first armor developed was for the head, to protect against clubs. I think, depending on the weapon, most hit locations are much easier for people to hit than they are in GURPS.

But, precisely, what Kromm explained in this link means that the GM can lower the hit penalties as he wishes!

If a character strikes a stationary target from behind, for instance, the target is not anymore specifically defending it's head, and his head has not anymore more mobility than his torso... So, the -7 for aiming at the skull can become a mere -5 or even -4.

What Kromm actually explains is that GURPS Hit Location table gives the penalties for the most common combat situation (two foes facing one another and ready to defend)... But, as ever, the GM has the final word to fit every specific situation.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gollum

What Kromm actually explains is that GURPS Hit Location table gives the penalties for the most common combat situation (two foes facing one another and ready to defend)...

I'm not going to change my stance on Brawling, but I will weigh in on hit location modifiers:

First, hit location penalties do indeed assume a wary foe facing you at the same level. You can get up to +2 from being prepositioned near the target hit location (which is why the skull gives -5 and not -7 from behind), and another +2 from having a more appropriate elevation (like the +2 to hit the feet or legs when you're below someone, or the +1 to hit the head from above). If the GM feels that some guy's brains are right there, then go ahead and add anywhere from +1 to +4. Ditto for fingers, vitals, a leg, or whatever. GURPS isn't some impartial PvP simulator; it requires GM judgment.

But also weigh in the frenetic pace of GURPS combat, which is often criticized and not without justification. Most melee blows should be thrown after three turns of Evaluate for +3. If there's an error in the rules, it's that the +4 for Telegraphic Attack probably should stack with this. Then you'll end up with fighters circling and throwing blows every four seconds, doing so at +7 (enough to aim at the skull every time), and mostly just hitting each other's shields (thanks to the +2 to defend). It'll take a long time to win. Fencers with their deadly blades will seem fast because they're only offsetting -3 hit the vitals when club-users are working on -7 to hit the skull; they may well attack four times as often with Telegraphic Attack.

If you use the rules as written, though, and gamers fight as gamers are wont to fight, then you have a situation where all blows are thrown on the one-second time scale and fights are over in 5-10 seconds. That can happen in reality, but it's relatively rare. We've all read about warfare and seen boxing matches . . . fights usually aren't that fast. At that speed, I think full-strength GURPS hit location modifiers are very much fair, as they represent fighters choosing targets that may well be screened, off the natural line of attack, and moving away from them. That's one way to fight, but not the most likely one.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm not going to change my stance on Brawling, but I will weigh in on hit location modifiers:

First, hit location penalties do indeed assume a wary foe facing you at the same level. You can get up to +2 from being prepositioned near the target hit location (which is why the skull gives -5 and not -7 from behind), and another +2 from having a more appropriate elevation (like the +2 to hit the feet or legs when you're below someone, or the +1 to hit the head from above). If the GM feels that some guy's brains are right there, then go ahead and add anywhere from +1 to +4. Ditto for fingers, vitals, a leg, or whatever. GURPS isn't some impartial PvP simulator; it requires GM judgment.

But also weigh in the frenetic pace of GURPS combat, which is often criticized and not without justification. Most melee blows should be thrown after three turns of Evaluate for +3. If there's an error in the rules, it's that the +4 for Telegraphic Attack probably should stack with this. Then you'll end up with fighters circling and throwing blows every four seconds, doing so at +7 (enough to aim at the skull every time), and mostly just hitting each other's shields (thanks to the +2 to defend). It'll take a long time to win. Fencers with their deadly blades will seem fast because they're only offsetting -3 hit the vitals when club-users are working on -7 to hit the skull; they may well attack four times as often with Telegraphic Attack.

If you use the rules as written, though, and gamers fight as gamers are wont to fight, then you have a situation where all blows are thrown on the one-second time scale and fights are over in 5-10 seconds. That can happen in reality, but it's relatively rare. We've all read about warfare and seen boxing matches . . . fights usually aren't that fast. At that speed, I think full-strength GURPS hit location modifiers are very much fair, as they represent fighters choosing targets that may well be screened, off the natural line of attack, and moving away from them. That's one way to fight, but not the most likely one.

Even if you make that rules change, characters fighting the way you suggest will lose, badly, to characters fighting the usual way. I'd be very surprised if adding in The Last Gasp would make an appreciable difference either.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Even if you make that rules change, characters fighting the way you suggest will lose, badly, to characters fighting the usual way. I'd be very surprised if adding in The Last Gasp would make an appreciable difference either.

Agreed. To fight "the usual way" means having the high skill to absorb hit location penalties and attack something vital every turn. I would expect someone who has skill 17 and can hit the skull at 10 to win against someone who has skill 10 and needs +7 in bonuses to hit the skull at 10. I think my rules change would matter mostly to gamers who are also using optional rules for edge protection, house rules for scaling down melee damage, and campaign guidelines that "normalize" ST and weapon skill. Since I've seen many a proposal for these things on the forums, always from the same subset of gamers, my guess is that only those people would really get much use from my tweak.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Agreed. To fight "the usual way" means having the high skill to absorb hit location penalties and attack something vital every turn.

No, that's not it. The reason you attack every turn in GURPS is because +1 to one die roll is not as good as two die rolls unless your roll is 5 or lower. Evaluate would need to be around +4 before it would be generally effective.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Agreed. To fight "the usual way" means having the high skill to absorb hit location penalties and attack something vital every turn. I would expect someone who has skill 17 and can hit the skull at 10 to win against someone who has skill 10 and needs +7 in bonuses to hit the skull at 10. I think my rules change would matter mostly to gamers who are also using optional rules for edge protection, house rules for scaling down melee damage, and campaign guidelines that "normalize" ST and weapon skill. Since I've seen many a proposal for these things on the forums, always from the same subset of gamers, my guess is that only those people would really get much use from my tweak.

I don't think you need to be making called shots to the head to beat the guy who is making one telegraphic called shot to the head every four seconds. You just pound him to pudding with body (or rolled location) hits.

If your target is wearing near-impervious body armor (made possible, likely, by houserules), that might be another story. But not everyone has that stuff when they fight.

EDIT: And hardly anyone is going to fight in a corselet and no helmet, are they?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, that's not it. The reason you attack every turn in GURPS is because +1 to one die roll is not as good as two die rolls unless your roll is 5 or lower. Evaluate would need to be around +4 before it would be generally effective.

My point in context being that if you have the proposed skill 10-11 warriors clubbing the skull at -7, their skill is 3-4, which is <5.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Nyarli

The only weird thing with fistloads is handguns-as-fistloads (Pistol whipping, High-Tech 93). Average handgun is better than blackjack, large handguns are even better. So in GURPS the best melee weapon for untrained fighter is a handgun.

Well, the damage caused by hitting people with heavy things varies largely by the mass of whatever you're hitting them with, as well as the jardness. Blackjack usually describes an item with a soft covering, and often a malleable weighted filling (e.g. lead shot), and are thus typically both less massive and less hard than a pistol. Reasons for hitting someone with a blackjack often include a reduced likelihood of killing the victim, relative to hitting them with a regular club.

So, if your goal is to hurt/kill someone as much as possible in the shortest time, you probably are better off pistol-whipping them.