[Magic] So Lasers Can Hurt Ghosts

[scc]

So the last time I brought up some problems with Magic, people where quick correct me and say that Missile Spells where still magical effects that they struck things, that is to say that anti-magic defenses still protected against them.

Well that's been rolling around inside my head and I realized something today: Taking that and the spell Sunbolt lasers can hurt ghosts. Yes it's weird but the logic is this: Sunbolt is a Missile Spell and so can hurt ghosts and other creatures with Insubstantiality, Sunbolt is also clearly a laser attack, ergo lasers can hurt ghosts.

Yes I realize how flimsy and absurd this is, but I think it highlights how bad the editing and lack of underlying model for how the world works hurts Magic.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by scc

So the last time I brought up some problems with Magic, people where quick correct me and say that Missile Spells where still magical effects that they struck things, that is to say that anti-magic defenses still protected against them.

Well that's been rolling around inside my head and I realized something today: Taking that and the spell Sunbolt lasers can hurt ghosts. Yes it's weird but the logic is this: Sunbolt is a Missile Spell and so can hurt ghosts and other creatures with Insubstantiality, Sunbolt is also clearly a laser attack, ergo lasers can hurt ghosts.

Yes I realize how flimsy and absurd this is, but I think it highlights how bad the editing and lack of underlying model for how the world works hurts Magic.

A Sunbolt may be magic, but it's hardly a "(nonmaterial) magical attack" that Insubstantiality wouldn't protect against.

I guess your argument is that light is "nonmaterial", is somehow not included when the previous sentence calls out "Physical and Energy", and so magical light can affect Insubstantiality? That still wouldn't include non-magical light.

I also have plenty of issues with Magic's editing and underlying model but I think dying on this particular hill is indeed flimsy and absurd.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by scc

So the last time I brought up some problems with Magic, people where quick correct me and say that Missile Spells where still magical effects that they struck things, that is to say that anti-magic defenses still protected against them.
[/B].

Starting out here, this is wrong. Missile Spells produce physical attacks that can penetrate No Mana Zones. They don't go through Force Walls and Domes either when non-Missile Spells will work on the far side of one of those. Enchnted Weaposn go through Force Walls and Domes too.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by scc

Well that's been rolling around inside my head and I realized something today: Taking that and the spell Sunbolt lasers can hurt ghosts. Yes it's weird but the logic is this: Sunbolt is a Missile Spell and so can hurt ghosts and other creatures with Insubstantiality, Sunbolt is also clearly a laser attack, ergo lasers can hurt ghosts.

The blatantly false step there is "Sunbolt is also clearly a laser attack". It's clearly *not*, it's a magical attack defined as concentrated sunlight (lasers are of course monochromatic and quite unlike sunlight) and able to bounce off mirrors (lasers intense enough to cause damage will shatter mirrors). Sunbolt is a weapon grade laser to about the same degree Create Fire is an acid attack (it causes rapid oxidation right?, acids cause rapid oxidation ergo...)

Edit: That's not to say lasers can't hurt ghosts, maybe they can in some campaign, just that this isn't a logical reason. For that matter there's nothing to say that *Sunbolt* necessarily affects ghosts. If it does in a particular setting it's probably because ghosts are antithetical to the magical conception of light (lasers might work) or sunlight (lasers probably don't), but ghosts that can walk around in the daylight might well be immune.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Starting out here, this is wrong. Missile Spells produce physical attacks that can penetrate No Mana Zones. They don't go through Force Walls and Domes either when non-Missile Spells will work on the far side of one of those. Enchnted Weaposn go through Force Walls and Domes too.

This appears to be a point of slight debate because of some things Kromm said in a discussion of Magic Resistance in Dungeon Fantasy. Personally I'd be inclined to disinvite rules lawyers who made a big deal of it either way, but some people like this sort of thing.

Note that Sunbolt has explicit rules in its text for some effects - Force Domes block it, it ignores Missile Shield - which make it a particularly bad spell to try to generalize from.

[weby]

In one of my games a flashbang was used against a ghost and I ruled that because the ghost had vision and hearing it could be affected by the effects, but that it was basically partly shielded from it so the effect was like they had had protected hearing and vision.

So in a future game I would likely allow attacks at least against eyes of ghosts with laser weapons, as if you have light collecting apparatus then that could definitely be overloaded with enough force.. though likely I would do some sort of protection again from the insubstatiality..

As for the original comment/question.. I would say that by itself it is just a special effect of the sunbolt.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by malloyd

lasers intense enough to cause damage will shatter mirrors

A laser can easily bounce off a mirror, as long as it isn't too close to the point at which the beam is narrowest. You can use that fact to make bank shots, or mirror turrets.

What won't work is reflective armor. If everything is working right, the beam is narrowest right at the target.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by scc

So the last time I brought up some problems with Magic, people where quick correct me and say that Missile Spells where still magical effects that they struck things, that is to say that anti-magic defenses still protected against them.

Um...what? I have no idea what magic defenses you are talking about.

Well that's been rolling around inside my head and I realized something today: Taking that and the spell Sunbolt lasers can hurt ghosts. Yes it's weird but the logic is this: Sunbolt is a Missile Spell and so can hurt ghosts and other creatures with Insubstantiality, Sunbolt is also clearly a laser attack, ergo lasers can hurt ghosts.

Missile spells can't hurt insubstantial things unless their insubstantiality has a "not versus" loophole. I mean if you've got air elemental insubstantiality I could see it not working against elemental attacks. I could actually see ghosts having such a loophole against sunlight. But no, Sunbolt is not clearly a laser attack.

[Kale]

If Ghostbusters has taught us anything it's that particle beams hurt ghosts, not lasers. Handwave being that a particle beam has a transdimensional component due to quantum shenanigans from how it rips matter apart.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Missile spells can't hurt insubstantial things unless their insubstantiality has a "not versus" loophole.

Or if you use the rules for applying enhancements to spells (Thaumatology) to add "Affects Insubstantial" to them