[UT] Integrated retractable bayonet

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Stabbing unarmed civilians with bayonets is particularly barbaric, especially when you have Dazzlers, Electrolasers, MAD, Sleep Gas, Sonic Nauseators, and Tanglers available. Honestly, a squad of police officers with Dazzler Carbines would be quite effective against most crowds of unarmed civilians, as the blinded members of the crowd will panic. With 9,000 shots per C-cell, they will also probably not run out of shots during normal operations.

Assuming the crowd doesn't have laser-proof glasses on. Also, I hope you don't care about the not-protesting civilians within the general area, because scatter will damage their vision, too. Oh, and it turns out that lasers strong enough to blind temporarily without blinding some of those exposed permanently are rather hard to make (I suspect probably impossible), so you've just turned a portion of the crowd into living proof of your brutality, expensive court cases, and/or a large expense for the state and/or economy in medical bills (or ongoing care costs if your tech isn't up to fixing their eyes). I'm not at all sure that using blinding lasers on a crowd is more humane than using a line of soldiers with fixed bayonets as a mobile barrier.

Also, a panicking crowd is not what you want if you're trying to control it.

[AlexanderHowl]

Dazzler Carbines are really safe and exact in UT (in urban areas, their long range and cone possesses minimal utility, it is the shots that matter). If you want though, you have the other options: MAD, Sleep Gas, Sonic Nauseators, and Tanglers, all of which are safer than bayonets (though have less shots than a Dazzler Carbine).

[WaterAndWindSpirit]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Of course, you need to consider the situation in which a retractable bayonet is of use. It requires an enemy that is A) vulnerable to the bayonet have B) a means of reaching you intact while C) you are unable to fire (due to being between reloads, having a malfunctioning weapon, or being outright out of ammo; to account for Aliens-level incompetence from your CO, there's also the possibility of "in an area where using your ammo is a horrible idea"), but D) leave you enough time to attack it while it's still at Reach 1 (2 if you're using a long rifle).

How hard would it be to make a Superfine Silver bayonet? The silver doesn't need to supply the cutting power, just to be weaved in the blade to be in contact with the target to trigger a Weakness... Is silver magnetic enough to be used in Gauss ammunition? Or do you need a ferrous core slug coated in silver? It is still specialized ammo against highly dangerous critters, and weaving just enough materials a lot of commonly seen critters have a Weakness to in an impact resistant bayonet (there are enhancements that can enhance weapon durability, sure they're expensive, but in the long run they cost less than constantly replacing the bayonets...) mean that your soldiers almost always have an option against dangerous critters even in cases where there are logistics difficulties with resupplying them. Plus, a large enough crowd will eat through your ammo quickly, and your highly specialized very expensive Depleted Phlebotinum Ammo is in reasonably short supply compared to normal slugs... And the bayonet being retractable was a stretch goal (because it makes the gun safer to carry. Retract the bayonet for transport, deploy it when expecting trouble to reduce transport incidents.).

[AlexanderHowl]

Why silver? Unless you are going up against super-level werewolves, normal UT rounds are probably going to do more damage (especially if they are fired from an ETC firearm). An ETC 15mm magnun pistol with APEP deals ~8d(2) pi+ damage, with is much better than what a ST 11 individual can do with a superfine bayonet (2d+1(2) imp). Even if you are going against super-level werewolves, I would rather use the UT gun than let them get close to me.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

How hard would it be to make a Superfine Silver bayonet?

Silver-coated should be just fine for a Superfine weapon, but note that typically activates a Vulnerability/Weakness to a lesser extent. To have more of the weapon be made of silver, you'll need to replace some of the non-cutting parts of the blade with silver (probably down to a minimum of an incredibly thin Superfine bayonet, with what would normally be the rest of the blade made of silver). Superfine (and Silver-coated Superfine) probably has the same durability as Very Fine, and the more you replace with silver, the less durable it becomes, probably down to Cheap.

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

Is silver magnetic enough to be used in Gauss ammunition?

I'm pretty certain silver doesn't typically respond to magnets, but I'm also pretty certain that doesn't matter for Gauss weapons. The reason is about the connection between electricity and magnetism. Basically, the oscillating magnetic field of the Gauss weapon is able to induce a current in a wire (or in this case, a metal bullet). That current itself produces a magnetic field, which the weapon's field can act upon to propel the projectile. It's the same reason why a metal detector can find silver.

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

impact resistant bayonet (there are enhancements that can enhance weapon durability, sure they're expensive, but in the long run they cost less than constantly replacing the bayonets...)

Superfine also functions as Very Fine, improving both damage and durability, so you're good here. However, being retractable and being durable are goals that are pretty strongly at odds with each other - retractable weapons are by RAW treated as Cheap for breakage purposes. You can probably design your retractable bayonets such that a typical break only affects the retraction mechanism, so that if the blade is deployed it will still work fine, it just can't be retracted. That would probably increase cost, and I'd argue the blade itself would still be treated as Fine at the best (basically, when checking for breakage, if a Cheap weapon would break but a Fine one would be OK, only the retraction mechanism breaks; if a Fine one would break, the weapon itself breaks).

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

Retract the bayonet for transport, deploy it when expecting trouble to reduce transport incidents.).

Retractable bayonets would primarily be useful for when trouble rears its ugly head right now - if you'd normally deploy bayonets as soon as you expect trouble, separate bayonets that you affix will do just fine (so long as you aren't currently in combat, the 4 seconds to draw and affix the bayonet, then get back into a combat stance, isn't much of an issue), and will save on cost and weight (a retractable bayonet is going to weigh and cost more than a multipurpose knife/bayonet and is going to break and need replaced more often... and you'd still need to carry the knife anyway).

[copeab]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Why silver? Unless you are going up against super-level werewolves, normal UT rounds are probably going to do more damage (especially if they are fired from an ETC firearm).

Silver is useful vs vampires, ghosts and witches. A bayonet doesn't run out of ammo.

[AlexanderHowl]

Not in most settings (even werewolf vulnerability to silver is not universal, though it is quite common). I would actually say that, in the vast majority of settings, ghosts, vampires, and witches do not find silver weapons any more dangerous than any other weapons. In 3e, vampires were immune to any metallic weapon, including silver weapons. In 4e, ghosts are immune to physical weapons, including solver weapons.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by copeab

Silver is useful vs vampires, ghosts and witches. A bayonet doesn't run out of ammo.

Yes, but its user runs out of hit points, or wind up in close combat where neither weapon is useful. An extra clip of ammo will probably permit more actual attacks than a bayonet.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Not in most settings (even werewolf vulnerability to silver is not universal, though it is quite common). I would actually say that, in the vast majority of settings, ghosts, vampires, and witches do not find silver weapons any more dangerous than any other weapons. In 3e, vampires were immune to any metallic weapon, including silver weapons. In 4e, ghosts are immune to physical weapons, including solver weapons.

Silver is probably the most common substance to serve as a supernatural weakness in fiction (and games), with Fire getting an honorable mention ("Kill it with fire!" is a common solution, but there are far more supernatural creatures with fire resistance/immunity than with the same specifically for silver; also, fire's more a class of chemical reactions rather than a substance). Also, why are you assuming silver doesn't work against the creatures the bayonets are being designed to fight? OP has stated he wants silver due to it triggering the targets' Weakness, so one must assume they have Weakness (Silver).

I do agree, however, with your earlier assertion that even with supernatural weaknesses coming into play, a bullet has a very good chance of causing more substantial injury than a bayonet (which is why I previously stated one of the requirements for the bayonet to be useful is an inability to use the firearm as a firearm).

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yes, but its user runs out of hit points, or wind up in close combat where neither weapon is useful. An extra clip of ammo will probably permit more actual attacks than a bayonet.

Yeah, this. As much as it pains me, the soldiers may well be better off just having a silver-coated KA-BAR as a sidearm knife, as a backup that's usable if they do get stuck in close-combat. Also, if it's a Weakness rather than a Vulnerability you're trying to exploit, it may be worthwhile to simply coat the tip of the rifle in silver, so that you can poke them with it to cause the reaction. This will also be useful for keeping the enemy at bay if they have Dread or a Phobia for silver (either of which could be appropriate for something supernaturally weak to a given substance).

Of course, in a cinematic setting, bayonets can rule the day. Indeed, in such a setting consider a wider retractable blade in the bottom of the stock of the weapon, allowing you to convert it into something like an axe.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Of course, in a cinematic setting, bayonets can rule the day. Indeed, in such a setting consider a wider retractable blade in the bottom of the stock of the weapon, allowing you to convert it into something like an axe.

Or just have a silver butt-plate (steel or brass butt plates were normal on service rifles until sometime around the 60s or 70s), and smash the baddies with that. This works best with a nice heavy full-bore service rifle from WWII or earlier of course.