Costs FP and limited metatraits

[Ulzgoroth]

Inspired by the Alternate Form thread...

It seems reasonable to apply limitations to composite abilities much the same as to individual abilities. Say, Body of Stone (costs 1 FP).

But (assuming no edge cases), you'd get the exact same discount if you bought every component of Body of Stone with the costs FP limitation...but to use them all at once would cost many times as much.

Is this just a case of misusing the tools that should be handled with Alternate Form? If so, how would one make an Alternate Form that drains the character while it's active?

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Inspired by the Alternate Form thread...

It seems reasonable to apply limitations to composite abilities much the same as to individual abilities. Say, Body of Stone (costs 1 FP).

But (assuming no edge cases), you'd get the exact same discount if you bought every component of Body of Stone with the costs FP limitation...but to use them all at once would cost many times as much.

Is this just a case of misusing the tools that should be handled with Alternate Form? If so, how would one make an Alternate Form that drains the character while it's active?

If you want a Body of Stone that costs FP while in actually transformed, then take Alternate Form (Body of Stone) and apply the Costs FP limitation to the point cost of the form. You then get Alternate Form (Body of Stone, 1FP/min) [135]. This is keeping in line with the F.A.Q.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

If you want a Body of Stone that costs FP while in actually transformed, then take Alternate Form (Body of Stone) and apply the Costs FP limitation to the point cost of the form. You then get Alternate Form (Body of Stone, 1FP/min) [135]. This is keeping in line with the F.A.Q.

In fact the faq (nice aliteration BTW) says the contrary, and states that limitations only affect the change itself, and thus are only applied to the base 15 point advantage, since Alternate Form is a transient ability. Thaumatology clarifies the issue. If you wish to have to spend fatigue to remain in your alternate form, you should have Dependency (Assuming natural form, constantly, fatigue only) [-12] as part of your alternate form template. (See the section on Spirit Warriors, THM212)

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

In fact the faq (nice aliteration BTW) says the contrary, and states that limitations only affect the change itself, and thus are only applied to the base 15 point advantage, <snip>

Back during the discussion, it was suggested that modifiers that affected the switch (transient use) should be applied to the base 15 and that modifiers that continued to affect the form after the switch be applied to the form cost.

The FAQ is the first half of that argument, so it's consistent to suggest some modifiers are more appropriate to apply to the form.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

If you want a Body of Stone that costs FP while in actually transformed, then take Alternate Form (Body of Stone) and apply the Costs FP limitation to the point cost of the form. You then get Alternate Form (Body of Stone, 1FP/min) [135]. This is keeping in line with the F.A.Q.

Ah. Yeah, the FAQ clarifies the Costs Fatigue on Alternate Form issue. I still wonder why it works that way, but RAW is RAW.

It also points to the use of enhancements/limitations on whole Templates. Which is something I wondered myself. Based on the FAQ, it seems you can apply modifiers to meta-traits and other templates, at least when they are included as a part of Alternate Form.

If so, then why not use them on templates "in the raw," without the use of Alternate Form? So instead of:

Alternat Form (Body of Stone (Costs Fatigue 1, 1-FP/min, -5%)))

Use:

Body of Stone (Costs Fatigue 1, 1-FP/min, -5%).

Again, based on the fact that in other abilities, this would be legal. However, has the FAQ indicates, Alternate Forms work differently from other abiliites.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

In fact the faq (nice aliteration BTW) says the contrary, and states that limitations only affect the change itself, and thus are only applied to the base 15 point advantage, since Alternate Form is a transient ability. Thaumatology clarifies the issue. If you wish to have to spend fatigue to remain in your alternate form, you should have Dependency (Assuming natural form, constantly, fatigue only) [-12] as part of your alternate form template. (See the section on Spirit Warriors, THM212)

The F.A.Q. states "If you want to put enhancements or limitations on the use of the alternate form itself, apply them to the alternate template or the individual traits it uses." So if I'm applying it to the template, then adding Costs FP, 1/min, to Body of Stone [140] makes it Body of Stone (Costs FP, 1/min, -5%) [133]. This makes Alternate Form (Body of Stone; Costs FP, 1/min) [135]. This is directly in keeping with the F.A.Q.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Ah. Yeah, the FAQ clarifies the Costs Fatigue on Alternate Form issue. I still wonder why it works that way, but RAW is RAW.

It also points to the use of enhancements/limitations on whole Templates. Which is something I wondered myself. Based on the FAQ, it seems you can apply modifiers to meta-traits and other templates, at least when they are included as a part of Alternate Form.

If so, then why not use them on templates "in the raw," without the use of Alternate Form? So instead of:

#1 Alternate Form (Body of Stone (Costs Fatigue 1, 1-FP/min, -5%)))

Use:

#2 Body of Stone (Costs Fatigue 1, 1-FP/min, -5%).

Again, based on the fact that in other abilities, this would be legal. However, has the FAQ indicates, Alternate Forms work differently from other abiliites.

RAW aside for a moment, this leads to funny math.

Suppose a template cost of [20]. Just of the sake of it. And use Costs Fatigue 2, -10%.

#1: Alternate Form (Template (Costs Fatigue 2, -10%))

[15] + [20 * 0.9] = [33]

#2: Template (Costs Fatigue 2, -10%)

[20 * 0.9] = [18]

So in calculation (RAW) #1, an ability that is much *less* useful actually costs much *more* than the unmodified ability.

Does this seem wonky to anyone else?

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

The F.A.Q. states "If you want to put enhancements or limitations on the use of the alternate form itself, apply them to the alternate template or the individual traits it uses." So if I'm applying it to the template, then adding Costs FP, 1/min, to Body of Stone [140] makes it Body of Stone (Costs FP, 1/min, -5%) [133]. This makes Alternate Form (Body of Stone; Costs FP, 1/min) [135]. This is directly in keeping with the F.A.Q.

Sorry, missread you then. Now, I feel that the FAQ is dated, given what was published in Thaumatology. Maybe we should summon Molokh?

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Sorry, missread you then. Now, I feel that the FAQ is dated, given what was published in Thaumatology. Maybe we should summon Molokh?

Why? The F.A.Q. presents one method of achieving the desired effect, Thaumatology presents a different method. Why should one method be removed or altered, especially in favor of one that requires the purchase of additional materials?

[jacobmuller]

Date of publication - most recent rule wins.

Not that it'll matter much but powers gives 1fat/second as 10%. Is there somewhere that gives 1fat/minute as 5%?